putting the cart befor the horse

digitalmagi · Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:09 am Post subject: putting the cart befor the horse

I warn you in advance that this is being written not more then 30 min after rolling out of bed. . . .

so, is it just me or are there a plethora of people who do comic book covers without ever doing any panel work or doing any comic book pages? Nothing against anyone. . .but when you put a bit of cover art into the gallery and tell everyone that there will be a book or some panels/pages following it but not until "later" much of the time that "later doesnt happen.

the reason i bring this up . . . as a writer it would never occur to me to think up a cover before i start the book. i know that everyone works in a different way the creation process itself is an artform, but i really feel that those artists who intend to create comics should read up on the creation process and maybe take a creative writing class at the local city college.

Learn the process and maybe then you will avoid the frustration of having a comic book cover with no book to go along with it. This is me speaking from personal experience as well. i have wanted to create a 3D comic since i first found Animotions and not long after that first read Sacred Truth. i have done plenty of layout for covers only to stop and realize i was spinning my wheels. . .

so this is sort of a rant/tip. . .early morning nonsense from yours truly spewed up before my brains' discretionary circuits are fulling functioning. i am certain that i will re-read this in a day or so and wonder why i was feeling so petty as to drop a negative post into the forums. . .

OrcaDesignStudios

Don't feel bad about this type of "negativity" -- it isn't really negative so much as it is reality. That one of the problems with online comics; they're too easy to abandon. There are only a handful of online comics I bother to look at anymore, because too many of the ones I thought were decent ended up going from weekly updates to monthly, and from monthly to whenever the artist felt like it and from there to never. I expect part of that may come from the fact that many people start their story with no resolution in mind -- there isn't an end to their story, so they basically ramble their way through some disjointed scenes then lose interest because they aren't working towards anything.
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Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com

Nim_Prodaction

I just posted a cover for my new online comic/story todady,it isn't finished yet(te cover i mean),but i defenetly have a story to go and the end of story too. it is a 10/12 page story (but it might increase as i keep adding more stuff) and it is the a born of a new hero,dark,could,violente one.

I didn't do a sigle page yet becase i'm waiting to get my software(vue d'espirit) to start.

So i'm making what i can to start the comic/story.

digitalmagi

i wasnt critquing you specifically Nimmer. . .it was a general complaint possibly inspired by my own inability to produce any o fhte projects i work on. . .i had a chance to work with the Darker Age Press gang but i had serious computer troubles and went out the window and really hate flaking on people.

Self honesty leads me to admit that in order for me to get anything really done it will require a group effort to that end i am always looking for other people with similar interests to work with.

However, when i finish the script for Project Winter: 2204 i will probably post it here for some constructive critique and see if anyone wants to work on it with me. i picked up the sfcs and the sfcs equipment for this project and i may think about investing in some story specific clothing. . unless someone else wants to help out and has that item already.

but i ramble. . .on the point of this post. . .almost in response to my first post is that sometimes we need something from outside ourselves to keep us focused, whether that is a self imposed discipline or deadlines set nd agreed upon with other artists/creators it doesnt really matter. ODS had it right, frustration is the harbinger of doom for us hobbyists.

Nim_Prodaction

jje · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:41 am Post subject:

Sometimes a cover is all you got.

It's like a first glimmer of a world that's hiding just behind your mind. 3D makes it a lot easier to run with those ideas. Good 2% of the time, bad all the rest. Interesting enough those statistics also hold true for the percent of reviews you should take seriously.
Most internet projects fail to get past the "wouldn't it be cool" phase and into the "actual doing" phase (viz. Wierdass)

The internet experience taught me lots. Not least of all, the direction the work needed to go in for me to focus more accurately. The internet is so full of other ded-end links I figured one more wouldn't matter.

Cavalier

Speaking for Darker Age Press, I think in our attempt to be different, our original idea of producing not one, but two team books for the net was overly ambitious. And right now the project is on dead ground. And really I am as much to be blamed for that than anyone else on the crew. I just wouldn't take the time to play with my proggies I should have. Hopefully I can remedy that soon.

However, we haven't given up hope. We are talking right now amongst ourselves about testing things out, and possibly doing a single Hero/heroine book to see just how long it takes us to go from start to finish and some of us are taking online courses on digital art programs to see if we just can't get back in the saddle again.

So even though we never did a cover here, we did do other images showing off our stuff and in the end faded into obsucrity, but don't count us out just yet. When we do launch something we want it to be something special and we will let you guys know if it happens.

Cavalier

jje · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:49 am Post subject:

Testing on a single project is a great way to go.
It tells you what works and what doesn't .
It's a funny balancing act being both slow to change (uphold continuity) and open to change (protocol changes and bottlenecks)

But to give you an example HCK:FLA averaged 4 pages a month. HCK:SoE - 6 pages a week with a record week of 8.
I can honestly say that nothing I was doing as a matter of course in FLA was still in place by the time I finished SoE.

...and then, let we forget, the unholy delusion, "this one shook out all the bugs. The next one is going to be a breeze"

lol

digitalmagi

fan that breeze over this direction. . . >=)
Project Winter: 2204 will be pretty ok. . if/when;
I manager to buy The Tailor.
I buy a few small things from RDNA and DAZ
I up my modeling level and actually get some good space ships modeled that dont look like something from an existing TV show/movie.

and last if i manage to actually go from script to panels. . .i will probably start posting some of my WIP files and link to my website where i will have the script in progess available to read.

i really enjoyed Hat Check Kelly although the panel design and layout were rough at first, i became accustomed to it. I wanted to go back and read Jack again but it seems to be a dead link.

jje · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject:

Well if you would like a bit of breeze consider this; around the time I was finishing up HCK:SoE, right about the time it was clear that I was actually about to bring a novel to conclusion, there was about a week when everything about the process became crystal clear; I was Jack and had all the Wild Things bowing to me.

Trust me, you want to get that feeling.

It was a good kick in the pants to get started on the next novel.

>i really enjoyed Hat Check Kelly although the panel design and layout were rough at first, i became accustomed to it.

I have fairly long debriefing conferences with the people to whom I've sent HCK:SoE. Only one came right out and said what you did, the rest I had to prod to make them admit the same. I don't make it easy on you, do I?
The Novella you read was me struggling with a form I knew I could mold. The new book takes that form and really lays on the depth. It's about 50/50 art/words all mish-moshed together... for 216 pages (lol)
While assembling the publicity package I've come up with this to try and explain it:

"HCK:SoE isn't like any comic you've read.
Pages are very dense and sometime challenge the reader to decipher.
"It's all intentional. In places it's supposed to be difficult.
Even though just a mystery novel, I wanted it to have all the scope, symbolism and nuance of a conventional all-text novel
"I'm not trying to write popular fiction.
"It's supposed to be a book for adults, not comic-fans."

I may have to include aspirin with every copy. :-)

On average it's taking people about three weeks to wade through the whole thing once.

It may suck, but it's 800 lb gorilla kind-of suck.

digitalmagi

it isnt unheard of. . so far as format goes, just a bit on the broad end of new. Keep in mind that the look of comics has changed dramatically. There are a few story arcs of Legends of the Dark Knight that come close to the HCK style and i have seen a few independent books that do the same. It is almost a flow onf consciousness style, very dada and very artistic in presentation. It does help that the imagery is back by a damn fine yarn.

Anyone know the standard number of splash pages in a contempory comic book. . excepting an image title because they are fond of eye grabbing imagery and crappy story. . .but take say a crossgen book for example. Thank you to the 1980's and Frank Miller for destroying the comic book panel black line border.

Anyone read Divine Right? Wasnt a bad story but it was on of the first fully computered colored books i ever picked up and it is gorgeous in the extreme to look at, as was Soul Saga. .which i stopped buying at #5 becauseit came down with a sudden case of Battle Chasers syndrome.

In any case, my point is that originality is no crime, although my current project pays homage to the space opera which sustained my sanity through my formativ years and despite my dear love of sword and sorcery. i will always return the shelf that house my heinlein and burroughs and my copy of the Vandarian Incident.

OrcaDesignStudios

digitalmagi · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:58 am Post subject:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . . .
splash page or splash panel or even center fold >=) or not doesnt matter, establishing shot or no, i was just saying that is has become common to replace many panels of story telling with cinematic cut scenes that in some cases take up two whole pages. It is still a recent innovation. Harlan Ellison talks about these changes too ona video which i cannont remeember the name of. . .erm comic book masters or something like that.

but i need to do to really see the change is visit the early 80's section of my Mighty Thor stack, then flip right over to my Tarot: Wiitch of the Black Rose stack.

or do i need to mention (shudder) Brigade? Doesnt everyone in the world own the first 5 issues of that book?
_________________
Never smile too big, the gods mistake it for hubris.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:31 am Post subject:

digitalmagi

seriously, i couldnt even give it away at a yardsale. . .what's worse when i was still married to an oppressive psycho i ended up buying not only Brigade and young blood, but ripclaw and one other tha ti cant recall the name of but it is all about the miltary unit that several of the characters were in way back when. . .just goes to show what desperation to satisfy a comic jones can bring a person to. On the bright side. . .if you are teaching a design class it is really fun to cut said rotten funny books into little pieces for other projects.