Online Comic Venue

Greek · Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:57 pm Post subject: Online Comic Venue

Hi everyone.

Diane has asked me to coordinate an effort to team up some writers and artists to produce some type of online comic venue. We could start with a pdf format that would be distributed in our store first, then later distributed elsewhere.

What we are doing is looking for ways to help writers and artists make more money and are looking for someone to help with formatting as well as writers and artists who want to do such projects.

Anyone wishing to join in will be welcome.
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Here is the link to the Renderotica store to upload your work. All the information is there, including the agreement. The Animotion store only allows comics and stories from G to PG-13. It you have something in this range, you can upload to BOTH stores, which may be a good idea. It will increase your market area.

http://www.renderotica.com/vend/sub.html
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Here are some writers that are looking for artists to work with. Give them a PM if your interested. I will try to make a list here, so check back often. If you want to add your name, let me know and I will include you. It doesn't matter if you are an artist or a writer. All are welcome.

Here at Animotions.

Ratteler - Editor/Writer/Artist/Modeler

Nim_Prodaction - Writer

ScienceFiction - Writer

jonthecelt - Writer

sunandshadow - Writer

palmers - Artist

Lucidius - Screenwriter for anime sci/fi fantasy

eduardo - Artist

TemplePriestess -Writer

Over at Renderotica.

foxwriter74 - Writer

ElCoyote - Artist

Thanks everyone for your interest.

Alex
_________________
I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-

Nim_Prodaction · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

me Wants!!

Greek · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Here is a point that I would like to bring up. Your work or ideas do not have to be restricted to this site. If you want, you can work with artists and writers over at Renderotica. This can be an individual or group effort.

We are not looking for just one storyline. We are looking for many different stories. If you would prefer, you can get together in groups and create your own stories.

These will be sold in both stores. In which store they are sold will depend on the content. Whether they are for younger people or adults.

If you have any other questions, just ask!
_________________
I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 550 Location: NYC

Well, Obviously I think this is a great idea.
You read my other message, and I've given it a good deal of thought.

I'm willling to do anything I can to make this a reality.

My first admonition is not to jump the gun.
This has the potential to be SO MUCH more than just a bunch of Web based Indy comics.

The number one commitment we need is to a workable PDF security scheme. Without it, this won't really be any different than publishing a web site and taking memberships.

These won't truley "online" comics. they will "didgital" comics delivered online and can be read on any system, or even printed out.

Most of the technology already exists. There are web tools to automatically generate a PDF files, PDF files already can be password protected.

What we need, that I haven't found yet, is a way to generate a Password for a PDF based on a point of sale transaction, then encode the PDF file with that information.

I'm no programmer, but did do a little programming back in the and I can start to break down the process.

This may seem like PITA. It probably also going to be the most expensive step.

As a result it's going to be the step you most want to skip.
The temptation will be to "test the water" and try and sell some books without the security before you make a financial commitment. This is going to have several chilling effects... First piracy will hurt sales. Second, artist will loose interest when their work becomes popular and they don't see a return. Third, artists will make PDF's and compete on their own to cut out the middle man.

The security scheme is the part of what you offer the artist to sign up and sell with you, that will make this interesting to them. Let's face it. Web space is pretty cheap. I can get 500MB for $100 a year with unlimited bandwidth usage. That's room for a LOT of PDF's.

While there is a value of having one place to go for a customer looking for Digital comics, is it enough to get the broad range of talent we need to make this profitable? Not by itself.

Why not a lesser form of security? If you have global password eventually some one will leak it. How do you find out who?

Even regular PDF security can be defeted. A PDF can be printed to BMP's or JPG's with an print to file driver. This is why I suggest some form of per page marking with the code.

Point blank, we actually WANT a little file sharing. We want the books to be passed between 3-5 friends just like friends might let you read a real comic they bought. We just want to make it hard enough to edit that we have a level of control that keeps them off of Kazaa, and other P2P services.

With things like Poser and other 3D models, plain digital artwork, music, and movies... this hasn't been possible. The formats themselves didn't have any security built in, and their legacy nature prevents new formats from gaining dominance.

Even if DAZ implemented something like this in their EXE delivery, it could be cirumvented simply by extracting the files and ZIPPING them.

PDF's however DO include security, and they are already the dominate file type in this catagory.

Things to consider in favor of the investment.

It hasn't been done yet, so it's a processs that can be licenced once it's developed. Any one interested in selling content in a PDF could benefit. User Manuals for programs, Text based E-Books, etc.

The traditional comic industry is in chaos, and has been looking for a way to move digital. If this even half works, it's something we can go to smaller publishers like Dark Horse, Top Cow, etc, and offer them. Just getting one known publisher to offer their library through us would legitimize the whole online thing. But there is no way they will do it without a form of security.

Let me know what you think, and just how much the managment/stie owners are willing and able to do.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 550 Location: NYC

Ugghhh..... I gotta stop writing a novel everytime I want to do a quick reply. :lol:

Greek · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

You bring up some interesting points. It will need to be discussed.

All that wish to participate, let me know. If you lack a certain skill, I will try to find those that you can work with.
_________________
I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 85

There is a way to protect PDFs from being shared, but the system is rather expensive. We would need to see enough revenue to justify the expense. We just made another relatively large purchase recently, so it's hard to come up with the cash right now.

In terms of creating our own security system, I'm not sure that could be done easily. There are patents associated with PDFs, so we would be treading on thin ice if we modified the files themselves. Even if we encrytped the entire file and made a one-time password for decrypting, the resulting decrypted file could be shared.

Because our audience is used to filesharing, we can expect that any weak system, like a password that can also be shared, will be cracked in seconds.

Any out-of-the-box thinking on this is certainly appreciated.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

It's certainly something I'd be interested in, but time is an issue right now. I'll be keeping a close watch, but I can't commit to anything just yet.

As a side note, are these going to be "policed" at all? Let's face it, 90% of online comics creators go like mad for two issues, then production slows until the story is updated once a year, if that. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be annoyed as hell if I bought the first two issues of an advertised 5-issue series and the creator up and quit.
_________________
Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 550 Location: NYC

As lone as we don't modify how the files work, we should be okay. It might be worth seeing if some one at Adobe can be contacted who can help us out.

To my knowledge, no one has ever distributed PDF's AS their product. They have always been either an added value type thing or "neccesary evil" used to include documentation.

Such additions to Adobe's product line would just make it more universally accepted.

I asked about this in an Adobe forum a while back and was told that the only way to do it was to get a programmer. So long as the resulting file is readable by Acrobat Reader, I doubt it would be a problem HOW we got it in there.

If you could share any links on the expensive system I would appretiate it.

The beauty of gennerating the password at point of sale based ont he transaction number is that it will be unique to every purchase. Even though it's apparently a weak system, and the Password itself CAN be shared easily, doing so will lead us write back to whoever gave out the file in the first place. Their identity is protected because the encoded transaction number is meaningless to any one who doesn't have our purchase records, but it's not protected FROM US. So we can enforce copyrights on any major offenders.

Ideally we could generate water marks that would be visible, and reproduced if say, the PDF was printed to a file and Jpeged, or printed out and scanned back in, but that werent noticible. That way we could track them reguardless of format.

No scheme is going to be foolproof, or stop those truely motivated on defeating it. But just like copy protection everywhere else, the goal is to slow the spread, and make it diffucult enough to deter the casual user.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 550 Location: NYC

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 85

Yes. All good points.

Eternl_Knight · Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

This is a good idea for many reasons. Alot of which Ratteler has already mentioned. Primarily, as far as I am concerned - the benefit is image. A single artist (or small group of independant artists) suffers from the image problem mentioned in the "policing" issue. That is, most don't last long - and those that do must prove themselves doubly persistent or be painted with the same brush. An artist would look at this venture and (hopefully) see a method through which they will not be tainted by this image.

Unfortunately, this means that the policing of artists involved in the work would need to be strict. The way I see it is that the company/group/whatever doing this needs to have at least two episodes in advance. This (a) gives the artist time to get the next episodes done as the second episode is simply sitting there ready to go, and (b) shows the distributing body that the artist has some dedication.

On the whole "secure pdf" concept, I have a few ideas and pointers. I am a programmer by trade, but don't think I'll have time to dedicate to code the required components. However, I'm free to point whoever happens to want to do it in the right direction and give advice should it be requested *shrug*

Greek · Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Eternl_Knight,

I would like to make the point again. Comics do not have to be series. They can be just single stories. Or even a limited series of say four comics. It does not really matter.

There was also discussion that an ongoing series would not have to be monthly. It could be quarterly. This would give the artist more time to prepare each issue and do individual stories between them.

The choice is really up to the artist what they want to do.
_________________
I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 550 Location: NYC

Personally I would limit any policing to making sure it's at least 22 Pages of content, and at a proper size/ resolution. The book I'm working on now is 3250 pixels across by 4680 down, or 8.125" across, by 11.7" down at 400 DPI.

That's not for this project, that a real book that should be out by January.

There is an average of 6 panels per page, but that's a loose gudiline rather than a rule. I have page with 3 panels, and another with 8.

If you design with those criteria, your working on a real comic book that can one day be printed. That should be the only enforcment. In spite of E-delivery, these should be traditional comic books, not flash enabled screen res psuedo animations or the like. There's nothing WRONG with that stuff, but it's not a comic book or graphic novel. It's something else.

As to content and frequency of publication... let the free market didcate what will happen. I realy don't want anyone dictating editorial what can should and will be done. That's the part of the comic book industry we want to do away with.

Yes, it may mean some people who have a great start fall of the face of the Earth, but it also means no idea is denied access.

To me at least, that's a much more important aspect of this. It means we will see books that would otherwise never be published.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

My suggestion would be that if it's a 5-issue mini-series, issue 1 doesn't hit the store until issue 5 has been submitted.

Also, how would pricing work? I assume it would be standardized for a 22-page book, but what if I want to do a one-shot that ends up being 50 pages?
_________________
Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com