Online Comic Venue

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Just a suggestion to make things go a little smoother and make things a little easier for Greek... how about everyone post some links that showcase their skills in which ever department they're putting themselves "up for adoption" -- i.e. writers link us to some examples of your writing and artists link us to examples of your sequential art.
_________________
Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Just found this post in the other part of the forum: http://www.animotions.com/postt1824.html

I can't figure out how to merge it here or I would, but here's the text (from Lady-Muck):

Hi,
Just a few thoughts after reading the discussion so far.
Do you think this venue would stretch from childrens stories to adult erotica?
Do you think it would have different sections for various genres?
If the site administrators do not want to be publishers who is going to edit and do the quality control?
I have bought e-books in pdf format so why does the format create a security issue?
_________________
Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com

Samsanca · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

For the security problem : what if we inserted invisible meta-tags in the images ? A part of the image (several pixels for example) would be the unique key necessary to identify a customer.
That way, there is no need of anti-password breaking software, the customer won't simply know where the key is.

As for the format, I can tell you that most of people who read digital comics are using programs like Acdsee of freewares like Cdisplay. Those programs don't use any Acrobate technology, only zip files wich can be read directly (no need to unpack them) by the programs I mentionned.

Question about our rights : who will pay to copyright the characters, what if the story is so successfull that we wish to publish it in real etc. ? Basically, what are our rights and duties here ?

Great project, I can't wait to see becoming true !

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Greek · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Orca,

I REALLY appreciate your help. I have been rather swamped the last few days.

Thanks.

Alex
_________________
I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

ScienceFiction · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 20, 2004 Posts: 2

Another option to consider for the Graphic Novel teams who are accepted for sales here at AniMotions would be for the team to consider printing an limited edition of the Graphic Novel and have all who worked on the project sign them.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 85

Regarding security:

While it is true that there is no perfectly secure system for distributing images, one must take into account the success of iTunes -- many people would rather have a legal copy. If the system is user-friendly and has some effectiveness, I do think people would use it.

Now for the technical stuff:

In order to prevent copying, we need a Digital Rights Management (DRM) system. This is how it works. When you open the file, it checks with the DRM server to see if you are a legal owner. This is how eBooks work, and how iTunes works.

The problem is that a DRM system is expensive, approaching $10,000. Without some basis to assume we are going to recoup those costs, it's difficult to make the investment. We will do it once it has proven to be justified, but we can't make that investment up front.

In the meantime, we need some ideas. Password protection is not sufficient and it just makes it a pain for the user if they have to enter the password every time they open it.

So we need something more effective. Is there a cookie-based scheme we can implement? We can't use the registry because there are lots of Mac users who actually spend money for things.

Any ideas?

Samsanca · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

Thanks for your answer, OrcaDesignStudios !

L8rdaze · Forum Member Joined: Jun 04, 2002 Posts: 62

Hey all

Just a few thoughts regarding this subject.

As an avid comic book reader....I've bought and read my share of good and bad stuff. Basically ya live ya learn. These days comics are downright EXPENSIVE and I've cut back quite a bit, although I have yet to kick the habit. I find myself going back to the old books now that are in the quarter box at my local shop and finding some great reads, comics I probably would have not picked up at full price! There's also bookshelve compilation versions I can grab at the bookstore. At work a bunch of us have even started a book swap, as we all buy different stuff...this works out really well...and saves hard earned dinero in the long run!

I have NEVER paid money for an online comic, as I've never had a reason to. One, there is a boatload of freestuff I can take avantage of now. Two, there is a bunch of crap out there (IMO (Hey...but again its free).

That being said, for me to invest or purchase, I would need a serious "hook" to pluck down 2+ bucks on an online comic. Flash animations would be 1 type of hook in my mind.

Content...are we truly going to seeunique stuff...or rehashes of existing stories that just have "different" creator owned characters. (andwhat about the ever dreaded copyright infringement)

Has anyone thought about a subscription type of service? With the amount of site users (39k+) it would seem like this may be another option.

Again this is just my 2 cents!

L8r!

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue

sunandshadow · Forum Member Joined: Feb 28, 2003 Posts: 12 Location: USA

Is there a thread about this subject over at renderotica, and if so, can someone link to it? I'm just thinking that as a writer of romance/erotica that's usually rated NC-17 I might be more likely to find an interested artist over there.

Also, I do not think the number of pages per issue should be restricted, I write novels where an issue would be a chapter, and the chapters vary in size - usually the first one is extra big because it has a prologue, a chapter, character pin-ups, and sometimes an author's note, and other chapters may be slghtly under- or over-sized depending on their contents. And I would want to be ableto inlude hyperlinks and animations as art of my product - can pdf do that? Couldn't we use ssl-encrypted webpages?

relik · Forum Member Joined: Sep 27, 2004 Posts: 12

I've skimmed over some of the postings in this thread, so if I respond out of sync with things please consider that.

My partner and I have been working on comics since we were kids, and have recently decided to resurrect some of our old characters and stories using the digital toolbox. Initially we had considered using a server of our own and diseminating the books via a secured site using the pdf format.

From our perspective, doing the work - having our artistic voice out there - is more important than making a lot of money from the project. While neither of us are rich by any means, we do have the requisite "day job" to sustain ourselves and our art "habits".

Having spent many years honing our craft as artists and storytellers, without ever having much more than a small "cult" following of friends and classmates, the potential of distribution to the entire planet via the internet seems worth the risk of loosing some sales revenue.

This is obviously not going to be everyone's perspective. The question of rights management is significant, but solutions are becoming more readily available, and as with most technology, they are becoming cheaper.

The simplest solution (as has been mentioned) is to password protect the original pdf file, and trust that the end users will endure the hassle of using the password to open it each time. Most of us are cool with typing in our passwords on our favorite websites, and I can think of a couple that require it even when cookies are enabled. And most of us have to log in to our PCs at home or work daily. Password locks are part of the modern "internet" experience.

At the other end of the spectrum is a more expensive system, but that might not be impossible if the business of "publishing" were managed correctly. If you sell 5000 books (or 5000 copies) at $2.00 each, you've paid for a $10,000 system. The initial investment, of course, is the problem. It was the problem in the days of the independently published print comics, and is the reason why many (including my own) never saw the light of day. If you have the kind of money needed to do something like that, you may not be the person who would be interested in doing it.

My point is that anyone who is waiting for the "perfect" system before they publish their books is never going to publish their books. They will loose out on the joy of having their work appreciated by the masses, and we will miss out on the unique vision they have to share. The risk seems justified from my end of things, but it will have to be a decision that each artist makes for him/herself.

If you have visions of becoming rich being a comic book artist, or an artist in general, please go down to the doctor and get a reality check. It's not likely to happen online or off, but you might get a little bit famous, and to a lot of us that's at least equally cool.

As an artist, I'm more comfortable with the idea that someone might like my work enough to "share" a copy with friends than that I have to surround myself with a girdle of security systems to prevent lost revenue. I'll be happy if my work is good enough that someone wants to pirate it.

There are two levels of such piracy, that of "sharing" something and that of "reselling" it.

The former does dilute the market to some extent, because people essentially get two (or four or five) issues for the price of one. But then, they ARE reading it, and I remember in the days of my youth we shared the paper variety of the comic book for similar reasons. Personally, I'll consider this kind of "piracy" to be no harm-no foul, and roll forward.

The latter context that someone might download a book, then post it on their website and sell numerous copies is a significant concern ONLY if you believe your work will be famous and sought after enough to encourage a thief to do it. And if you are that good-AND that lucky-you'll probably be able to afford the rights management system and the lawyers to hunt down and prosecute the thieves.

I'm not trying to sway anyone in any direction, only to provide my own viewpoint from several years of trying to work in the comics marketplace. For my own part, my partner and I are planning on finishing the first book of our series for a January release, with a quarterly schedule at least in the beginning-possibly moving it to a bimonthly schedule if time and resources permit. If you have worked out the delivery system-ANY delivery system-by that time I'd be most grateful to put our book up here and see what happens. -R

Chasart · Forum Member Joined: Sep 13, 2002 Posts: 27

Greek, methinks you're in for a roller coaster. I hope you're ready.

Not that I'm trying to be negative -- in fact, at times the trip will be somewhat euphoric, when you see some of these projects come together.

But trust me, it's going to be interesting. I may develop some of my own projects for this as a writer / artist but otherwise don't have a lot of time to contribute (other than possibly single-occasion editing / suggestions, for an occasional work which is well into progress). However, if you need advice or an ear while pulling this together, PM or email me -- I've been down this road before.

Anyone who's interested in brokering their skills, either as a writer or as an artist, should be aware that there is quite often a parabola of momentum in new creator partnerships. Some grow into something that flourishes for years, while others (somewhat more often) experience some meteoric ups and downs, only to ultimately fall by the wayside. Creativity is a fickle b!t@# and it happens to the best of us.

Before agreeing upon a brokered situation, make sure that several things will be clear. I know some of us don't like to work under contracts, but at least a few things should be discussed.

1) Ownership of the work. You'll be amazed how often it happens where the artist doesn't make any claim to the writing, but the writer wants copyright of the art, or at least limitations that the art can't be used elsewhere outside the project. As a hard-working writer who went on to become a lacklustre artist, I respect the sweat and tears that go into both -- but don't be saying that the writing deserves more leeway because there's more work to it or because it's the "soul" of the project, because I suspect you're going to lose that arguement on both counts. I only say that in fairness (and sometimes it's best coming from someone outside the collaborative arrangement).

You might want to discuss ownership of story and art at two different stages: while the work is in progress, and once the work is completed. In the case of the latter, your work becomes a complete work and can then be copyrighted as a whole 50/50, if you like, but only once it reaches that stage. This protects the writer as much as the artist -- if the artist fails to complete the work, the writer may then dissolve the agreement and approach another artist.

2) Time frame required. Real Life intrudes on both parties' time, and your agreement should be an honest reflection of your actual / current work pace. Sure, if you were doing comic art for a living, you might be able to do 2 pages a day, but if you're not, don't claim that's your pace. Agree on a pace based on what you produce now (writers too), and also on what consitutes a realistic time at which progress has stopped and a dissolution of the partnership might need to be discussed.

3) $$$. And this goes hand in hand with points 1 and 2. If there is any transfer of ownership, there probably should be a transfer of money along with that. In which case, an artist may still be entitled to a royalty later (if that's part of the agreement), but it's certainly not going to be 50/50.

Personally, I prefer the 50/50 shared copyright principle, but it's not always ideal. Frankly, as a writer, I can't afford to shell out money (especially not knowing how far along the project will go), but as an artist, I can guarantee that paying work gets done sooner.

Even though Animotions is acting as a connector, broker, possibly editor (?), it is not deciding these things for your creative partnerships. Make sure everyone's on the same page before you start. Then, all you'll have to worry about is the creative stuff.

-- Chas

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 561 Location: NYC

Hmmm.... this looks like it's starting to evolve away from being comic books.

Flash is great. I don't see any reason why people can't do Flash stories and sell them online. But they are NOT comic books.

A "COMIC BOOK" follows an industry standard set of rules. By following these rules, any one who participates is generating a product that not only can be sold on line, but also at some point sold in the traditional comic book venue.

It's great to have a unique art form, but one of the first rules of success is to look at what the successful people are doing, and emulate it. If we open up THIS particular venture too wide, it will just loose value. The audience won't know exactly what they are getting, so they won't buy.

My idea of a security scheme was more along the lines of what "Samsanca" was thinking. A very subtle watermark that could be seen if it was printed out, and scanned back in, but would appear meaningless to the end user.

A TRUE server based DRM system would be very bad in my opinion. It mean you can only vew the book when you have internet access. iTunes may have a measure of success, but it also had a level of hype several orders of magnitude above what we are even capable of, for a product serveral orders of magnitude in more demand.

The passord/watermark system is passive protection that allows the user to be in control of their purchase at the same time. I think the idea of content that doesn't work if the company goes out of business, or I'm not connected tot he net is appauling. I would never buy that.

Sunscription have been tried all over the place, You get a single curiosity membership, MAYBE, and when the month runs out they ditch.

Unless it's something like DAZ Platnum Club, where you can buy the book at a regular price, but get it at a major discount.

I think we might do better to move this discusion to the ONLINE COMIC's forum for want a better place, and split into 2 seperate groups.

Creative Development, and Business Plans. Because we are doing both, trying to figure out HOW to get things done as well as finding people to participate.