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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:31 pm Post subject: Administrative And Technical
We will use this thread for dicussing issue of PDF security, formats, files sizes, pricing, etc. _________________ I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Are the stories that will be distributed, only allowed to be in pdf format? Will the store accept any other formats like mobipocket? Are any of the comics/graphic novels for sale also for pdas, pockets pcs and cell phones or are they only for desktop pcs and macs?
Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 787 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Diane said in another thread that the formats would be up to the creator. However, one thing you'd need to bear in mind is the market -- PDFs are likely to reach a larger number of people than the other formats you mention. Also, I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but there's no way I'd be able to read a comic on a PDA or cell phone -- the screens are way too small, even if you were doing one panel per page. _________________ Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Agreed there. PDF is probably the best format to keep the art and text intact. The question I would have about it is: does that also reach the most people the easiest?
Not format-wise, per se... I agree that PDF is more widespread and safer than any other online formats, including a run of HTML/JPEG pages protected by password encoding. It would be far less easy for unsavory sorts to 'modify' PDF's, too, as Acrobat Reader is standard, but Acrobat itself isn't as widespread, as opposed to Jpegs, which can be grabbed, saved to the hard drive, and modified.
But what I'm thinking about is Filesize, too, especially for people with low-bandwidth connections. Keeping in mind that an 11 page PDF 'comic' I ran in a group was almost 3 megs, but the quality of the embedded pictures was pretty low, and the text wasn't 'in the box' captions, but short picture-side descriptive text. With high quality pictures, legible text balloons and 22 pages (I have scripts that run 27, and if we're talking graphic novels, we likely mean more), are PDFs going to be accessible and easy to get for people on dialup?
I think they should be, but I would be interested in seeing specs on something like that.
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Sadly, I know little to nothing in this area. If someone more knowledgeable would care to answer.
Another issue I would like to bring up is the prices. I think that we should come to some agreement on a price structure. How much can we charge, say on a per page basis? What would be a good or reasonable amount?
Also, what about a couple of pages as a free preview to what the story is about? I think we need to get this settled soon before people start uploading their comics. The holiday season is fast approaching, and no doubt some will be ready by then.
How about some input.
Alex _________________ I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-
Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
I would imagine that price could be settled on by the artist/writer tandem, although I don't know what sort of percentage Animo/Rotica might wish to have for hosting it. If you think about it, a collected arc runs about $10-20 printed, depending on number of pages. I'd be willing to bet we could come nowhere near that and sell anything, regardless of writing and art quality. A good five-issue arc might only be able to command $5 as a PDF, collected. Single issues might only work for a $1 maximum, as unfair as that surely sounds to the people who do the work on it.
Most people here own Poser. Considering that for the price of two issues, they can go get a new toy from the Daz Plat club, (or some other sites' specials) we have to make our work worth noticing, but at the same time, very likely far underpriced for the time and effort involved. Not trying to scare people, you understand-- just stating facts.
With that said, I think it would be nice if we were able to post reviews to the store description after people have read the comics. Even with a couple pages free, hearing that others have read and enjoyed the work might command more sales (and stoke our creative fires) by creating a miniature buzz by word of mouth.
Joined: Mar 11, 2004 Posts: 103 Location: Portugal
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Greek wrote:
Also, what about a couple of pages as a free preview to what the story is about? I think we need to get this settled soon before people start uploading their comics. The holiday season is fast approaching, and no doubt some will be ready by then.
How about some input.
Alex
I agree on this.
Me and my partner are working to do this.
First we will do a small story for 5/6 pages that our wish was to realease it for free and THEN start selling.
About the price.....we are always thinking on a price that would be good for us and never on a price that would be good for the readears.
I mean, why DVD's, CD's, and all that are having problems with iligal copies??
I buy special editions of DVD at 25/30 Euros (i'm from Portugal a European country) and after a while i find the same special edition at 10/15 EUROS .
Then i start to think WHY they dont start selling at 10/15 Euros??
They still make profit of it and than maybe people dont go and buy illegal copies.
Here we find illigal copies at 5 EUROS each disc.
For Special editions (2 DISCS) i have to pay 10Euros.
IF the Original DVD's are 10/15 Euros than of course people wouldn't mind paying for the original.
With this i mean we should use the cheapest price ever so we would avoid illigal stuff. (i know that for this online comics you wont get it anyware else in other price, but at least you will not have the trouble to make avaleble in some illigal way)
Sorry for my English, but time to time i don't know why i tend to wright english very badly.
I think we can get away with $2 each book if we stick to a 22+ Page fromat. I've downloaded scanned books that were 40+ MB. If people want to read it, they'll wait for a long download. Maybe we can split it up into a few RAR files to be more edible for dialup users. Or offer them CD Burns.
One problem I have is is with the use of Flash. If it's Flash it's not a Comic BOOK.
There's a very different feeling to a book vs a comic strip vs a Cartoon.
If your doing it flash... you're doing a cartoon.
Be aware that there is a time differential as well. 132 images in a flash format is roughly 11 seconds of content. Where as 132 images in Comic can give you 15 min to a hour of read time enjoyment.
It's been done 30+ years ago by Marvel. Remeber the Marvel Super Stories that looked like comic books cut up and animated like short choppy South Park episodes.
Bottom line... Flash will be many times more work for value that people will percive as less.
Hey. I could be wrong here... Flash Comix might be exatly what the public is ready for and you may make billions. Who really knows?
My guess is an educated one though. I've all but got a masters in media communication. I studied just HOW these different media effect people.
I think if some one download an 11 second flash comic for $2... they won't be back for ANY of our books.
The industry standard for comic books is called Blue Line Bristol Board.
The page size is 11 x17 with 10 3/8 x 15 ¾ image borders and 9 x 13 ¾ safe dotted border area.
Anything outside the 10 3/8 x 15 3/4 boarder is what's called full bleed. That area can be cut off during printing so no important detail should go there. To be REALLY safe, keep all your action within the 9 x 13 3/4. This includes all frame lines and text ballons. This is the industry standard for comic work. When scanned in the pages will be anywhere from 600dpi to 300dpi. I would say 300dpi is the lowest you should work at.
So that would be 3300 x 5100 pixels.
It may sound like a PITA, but if your work at that quality... one day your book CAN be printed.
If you're book get enough recogintion from it's presence here to be bought by a publisher, you're talking about $10,000 to $15,000 payoff. That about what Dark Horse spent on the single 22 page issue I just worked on. That was of course split between all the artist involved.
Check out this link for a break down of jobs. It may help explain a little of how this format works
Joined: May 30, 2002 Posts: 495 Location: Ohio - USA
Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Administrative And Technical
Quote:
Agreed there. PDF is probably the best format to keep the art and text intact. The question I would have about it is: does that also reach the most people the easiest?
Quote:
But what I'm thinking about is Filesize, too, especially for people with low-bandwidth connections. Keeping in mind that an 11 page PDF 'comic' I ran in a group was almost 3 megs
Quote:
I would say 300dpi is the lowest you should work at.
I would stay with pdf's, everyone is going that way, how many manuals do you actually get with things now, they're all on cd in a pdf format. Acrobat reader comes pretty much standard with all computers now a days and most people are familiar with it.
With Acrobat Reader you're pretty limited to what you can do with the files, read and print...most people don't have the full version of Acrobat to be able to split the pages, extract images, manipulate text and so forth.
As far as file size remember what your target is..right now it's an on screen pdf, it's not meant for print yet, yes in your initial program I would probably stay around 300dpi and keep your originals that size that way if it actually does get printed you don't have to redo everything, but for an onscreen pdf you don't need anything that high res since it's not intended to be printed, you can downsample it some in your Acrobat Distiller settings to help keep the file size down.
If one would actually go to print check with your printer, rule of thumb is whatever line screen your printer is imaging you at your dpi should be twice as big for your images...most cold web presses use 100-133 line screen so you wouldn't need to be over 200-266 dpi, heat set presses are usually 150-175 line screen so 300-350 dpi, you can go bigger but it's just wasted file space.
I strongly suggest you try to do something you can justify charging at least $2 for. Anything less and the processing fees will eat up everything and it isn't worth it for us to even do it. Even $2 is cutting it close if we do the standard 50/50 split, although we may try imposing a $5 minimum on transactions.
My apologies for not posting it here on Anim, but Rendo is sorta my home turf at the moment. The main point is that the web strip comic concept will now be put to the ruthlessly scientific test of viewer numbers. Of course, if it flops, it might not be the format's fault ;o)
Thanx for the suggestion, but the strip won't contain much that would interest the 'Rotica readership - I don't do pretty ladies all that well ;o)
"Purgatory" is simply an illustration of a concept, one that I sincerely believe could get more creators going, as it's (sligthly) easier to do, and to publish (compared to PDF/print).
When I saw Anim announcing the comics idea in your newsletter (yes, I am a member, I just lost my password, sorry), I thought I'd pitch in with an idea - and now some initial "scientific data" on its viability - or lack of it ;o)
You'll need a free membership in the Small Press Association to access all the information, but here are some sample numbers to think about:
STANDARD COMIC SIZE – SADDLE BIND
4-COLOR PROCESS INTERIORS ~ STANDARD SIZE
Cover: 4 color exterior covers – black inside covers on 80# gloss book
Text: 4-color process throughout
Standard size: 6.625" x 10.25"
ECONOMY OFFSET- only in 16 page increments
10,000 copies, 32 pages - $4315; 48 pages - $6115
SADDLE STITCHED - 60# WHITE GLOSS
4-COLOR PROCESS INTERIORS ~ STANDARD SIZE
Cover: 4 color exterior covers – black inside covers on 80# gloss book
Text: 4-color process throughout – 60# white gloss
Standard size: 6.625" x 10.25"
10,000 copies, 32 pages - $4715; 40 pages - $5790
"Our only requirements to get our rates are these: One, you sign up for and are a member of our Small Press Association Forum. It's free, and it allows us to keep you informed on things dealing with the SPA, which you have done if you are reading this. Two, we are asking that somewhere in the printing info of your publication, large enough to read clearly, that "printed through the Small Press Association" is present, with our website address. Use of the SPA logo is optional. Those are the only requirements, no membership fees will be required."
The SPA is also trying to build their own distribution network for small publishers as an alternitive to Diamond.
Well.... there we have the competition and their rates.
It costs YOU a $0.62 per book for the highest priced printing. Then you have to try and sell 10,000.
And that is probably the best rate I've heard of for a printed book.
At $2.00 a book, you have to sell 3058 issues to break even on the printing, assuming you spent no other money on promotion and you hit the magic 3058 book mark.
Average Indy Comics only sell about 2000 issues nation wide.
This is not counting Diamonds almost 70% cut as a Distributor that make selling your book for $2.00 impossible.
The alternative is to contact EVERY comic book shop in North America, and try to convince them to order your book directly from you. Add up those phone calls and letters, plus postage to mail their order to them.... all out of your pocket.
Compare that to what we're trying to do.
No Printing Cost, no break even sales point.
You start making money the first time some one buys your book. For the same 2000 sales you'll be in the black $1100 after a 50% 50% split.
Plus your book is available as a impulse buy to every net enabled computer in the world Vs. Just at a Comic book specialty shop that most people have to travel to visit.
Since no one bothered to respond to this yet... I'm adding a few more details.
This is from a comic store owner on the pitfalls of HIS end of the business, but it also includes invaluable tips on for content creators on making your book sell.
This is a website dedicated to more diigital comic work.
Of particular not is the last entry by "snakebite".
Quote:
he's right about how many retailers are left. Dr. Jo herself from our finaicial/business end made a national calling campaign when we went indie again after Image. little over 1400 stores left.
What this author is incorrect about is the retailer radar.
he might have it, his friend might have it but 90percent of the retailers don't. we fukin sent a scud missle at their collective radar asses (tell me who calls every retailer to get on their "radar") and they all said the same thing."If you're in the back of previews chances are we won't order and if we do maybe 1 or 2 units" even after admitting they know and love red star.
it takes 6- 18 issues before we get noticed? ah man, what indie book can survive that long in todays market before they get noticed? that sucks. but the retailer is not the problem at all, right.....shhhhhhhit.
why books fail...
"1) The work isn’t good enough.
2) The publisher isn’t capitalized well enough to get past the initial “getting to know you” stage.
3) The creators don’t produce work consistently."
forgot a few more, like retailers hardly ever reorder after they sell their stock giving no one else a chance to see your title if the 2 units they bought for their store sell out....after all they need 6-18 issue before they know whats up.
..and I don't give a cht as to what he thinks but monopolies fuk everything, sorry. You could stop printing Previews all together and the same people would be going to the same stores to buy the same titles they always buy. the plague of preaching to the choir.
its not that diamonds makes it hard to solicit (how could they keep you from soliciting in previews anyways), but it makes it hard to survive.
this author makes good points, though, he also has a great disclaimer that its just one man perspective but it seems to ring true through out his peers. but raising the bar doens't mean sht. that subpar sht he talks about sells more than cutting edge works most of the time and sub par floods our industry so i don't know what he's thinkin'. Even his precious big titles got alot of sub par goin on. so sub par is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
"There are a couple of ways, some applying more to writers than artists, some the reverse, all of which sound much easier than they are. This list is by no means complete
1) Come up with the best idea ever. (whatever that means)
2) Be unspeakably talented.
3) Get a plug from someone already on our radar.
4) Be unique and refreshing.
5) Understand who your consumer audience could be, then communicate that clearly to the retailer.
6) Produce quality work on a regular schedule, and keep it up."
I mean, i don't wanna toot our horn or anything but team red star met 5 of his 6 requiriments to get in the "radar" and....well, ya know. AND, who the <naughty word> meets all these requirments? even marvel DC and all those other nipples everyone partakes in don't measure up like that.
this article could've been summed up like this:
The industry is flooded. The big guns pump out product by using budgets from other sources while indies have to reach into their own pockets to compete. Stores buy what is safe since they don't like taking chances on outside of the box thinking. How can they, why shoudl they?stores are overhwlemed with titles from the sources that have always made them money in the past. These sources continue to produce more titles, continue to buy more titles and continue to own the monopoly on titles. The only way indie creators can make money is to sell their titles to these big guns while collecting a page rate to survive. their titles will go back in the machine, the machine that made them sell their title in the first place since they couldn't compete...and when their pay checks are spent they can come up with new ideas to sell so someone else can make money off it.
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