Women in comics - Round Table

Sharby · Last edited by Sharby on Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total

I know it's been awhile and I apologize, but a couple of the legs on the table needed repaired and I just hate an uneven round table.

So....

Women in comics. Are they being portrayed as role models or eye candy? The majority of comic collectors are male, most of the stories are geared toward men (I mean come on..at least every comic has at least one fight in it), and it seems like every heroine has at least a D-cup.

Are there any good role models for young women that aren't "super-sized" so to speak?

BillyBob · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

I think that the intellectual and emotional portrayal of women in comics has progressed in many ways since even the 1970s, but the physical descriptions haven't. Women characters who can be hot, are. (In other words, artists don't try to make grandmothers or 10-year-olds look sexy, but pretty much any female character from the teen years to the 40s is.) But then again, aren't men depicted the same way for the most part? I mean, "supers," whether male or female, have insanely exaggerated body proportions. Female characters have impossibly narrow waists and chests that defy gravity, while male characters have six-packs and 5% body fat. That is the nature of comic art; always has been, always will be. Why? Because this kind of physical representation matches what we envision a superbeing to be. Would we believe that a superhero is a badass if he had love handles and was balding? Would we take a heroine seriously if she had a normal woman's waist and a skinny body? I don't think so.

Regardless of tone and language, comics remain a retelling of myths, and mythic beings don't (can't!) look human. Is it right? Probably not, but it's no different from the way that women are represented in movies, TV, commercials, etc.

Hasdrubal

This is off the main tack of discussing comics, but the subject reminds me of a funny story from my Navy days.

Frequently my division officer would insist on distrubuting command survey questionaires through the various offices in her department. Many of the questions were for determining how politically correct, liberal, or conservative we were. Our Executive Officer's political correctness went so far, that sailors were banned from listening to conservative talk radio shows broadcast on Armed Forces Radio.

As my enlistment was running out, I decided to have some fun with their survey questions. One of the questions was, "Should women be allowed in combat?"

My reply was, "Yes, but only against other women." The joke soon spread throughout the entire command, and no more time wasteing B.S. questionaires were circulated.

If a comics story features a female heroine, the most annoying thing the writer can do is to present the story with the intention of reinforcing his or her own political correctness on the reader. Unless political issues are handled as an Ed Wood style joke, the story will always amount to total crappola.

The Fantastic Four stories from the 70's featuring Thundra deal with comic book feminism run amok, but they're hilarious.

Fantastic Four #133 feature's Thundra's battle with the Thing. The story was written to mirror the big 1973 media event tennis match between Billie Jean King and Bobbie Riggs. Both the script and Ramona Freyden's art work make it one of the funniest comics ever written. Thundra, the ultimate feminist, was hell bent on humiliating a poor unassuming orange scaled man-monster, in the middle of Shea Stadium, in front of thousands of spectators. In later F.F. stories Thundra pursued the Thing as her intended mate. Poor Ben was always embarrased by her crude pushy advances. Thundra was too silly to be a role model.

Another 70's series I liked was Ms. Marvel. The character was written to have feminist views, but the series never became a soap box for anyone's politics. The Ms. Marvel series writing and art varied in quality, but it was always a better book than DC's 1970's Wonder Woman or Supergirl series. The writers allowed Ms. Marvel to be both beat-up and unmasked by the villains. Those two things rarely happen to either male or female comics heroes. DC would have never allowed an unmasking of any of their characters back then. Allowing the heroine to have vulnerabilities and occasional failures was a big leap in comics writting. The vulnerabilities of Marvel's characters is what made them more human and emotionally engaging than the DC characters back then............................But I also thought Ms. Marvel had a much sexier costume than Wonder Woman.

Ms. Marvel wasn't the best written character but her refusal to give up the fight still made her a good role model.

It's a shame how Marvel killed that series with new writers every few issues. Chris Clermont, the last Ms. Marvel series writer, could have turned that series around if they had given him a chance. He could write realistic female characters like the Phoenix without spouting politics or spinning zany Ed Wood style stories. Clermont's Phoenix has to be the best written female comics character ever. Her self sacrificing nature makes her an excellent role model.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

I would say Billy Bob covered it. All heroes are unrealistically exagerated toward the corperate image of perfection. Male and Female.

It's just the fact that the comic industry is male dominated, and targeted that leads us to belive women are treated differently.

Vadlor · Forum Member Joined: May 09, 2003 Posts: 328

kobaltkween · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 13, 2002 Posts: 1

as someone who's mostly into kind of "indie" comics, i'd say it totally depends on the comic. from the cute goth style of charm school, courtney crumrin and hopeless savages to the realism and surrealism of optic nerve, kabuki and sandman, there's a good number of comics with quality female characters in them. little girls can identify with chance (of "leave it to chance") and grown-ups have the many masks of the noh and echo (david mack's creations).

if you want to talk mainstream comics, though, yeah, eye candy mostly written and drawn by males for males. and therefore, i, personally find them as skewed and ridiculous as hasdrubal found those questionaires. i mean, i'm sorry, but how believable is a she-hulk that looks like she's about 120 (the recent version)? i think things get really boring and show a lack of artistic talent when idealized means one ideal and not more than one. if all someone's characters look the same from the neck down, and maybe even up from there, i dont' tend to like them much. i mean, even a lot of the highly stylized artists i have in my collection draw _characters_.

and i think there's a difference between an idealized hero or heroine and a pin-up or basic stand-in put in place for victimhood, with all the character development put elsewhere. also, it matters how much someone understands the character they're writing. if you just make a character because he or she is hot and useful/attractive/etc. to your other characters (as a lot of females in mainstream comics are), then they're not good characters in _any_ kind of story, mythic or no. a lot of times, it seems like writers blythely create characters with backgrounds they're not familiar with or have no experience with and therefore just make them unrealistic and lacking in any of the substance a good story should have. it's even worse when writers try to present such characters from an internal perspective.

basically, i don't think superhero should mean formulaic and banal. i've read good superhero comics- it's possible to do. and most of them include good character development all around.

personally, i don't think it's about agenda. 99% of the media out there (if not all) has particular and specific social messages and agendas and biases. i've read all sorts of comics where the obvious message was chauvinistic or outright misogynistic (and quite often, kind of ignorantly racist). frankly, that didn't always stop the comic from being _good_ in my opinion. i haven't read anything by alan moore that didn't eventually involve a rape (what is his issue?). i find his female characters interesting, but highly prone to victimhood and occassional obvious stupidity. he's still very good. dave sims is outright _insane_ about women (the onion's interview of him had me giggling and amazed), and has a very specific and vocal message. he's still a good writer and artist (though i really can't take regular doses of his hostility).

in the end, i think it's all about style and honesty. and personal opinion. when artists' speak from their heart, and with skill and eloquence, their work is good. when they don't, it isn't. i've read comics by artists with specifc points of view dealing with aids, spousal and child abuse, women's rights (either side), death in the family, all kinds of issues. and the ones i own i think are mostly good at it. the ones that were bad, i passed by.

oh, and i want to say, hasdrubal, i think you were right- that was a particularly stupid and annoying method that was set up to accomplish nothing. conversely, while my boyfriend was in the army, he told me about some completely criminally sexist and racist acts. there's big problems in the armed forces (overall, not just "minority" issues, how enlisted men and women are treated is often quite literally criminal), but i have no clue how to solve it. humor can help, though, so i'm glad you added your dig/chuckle to the experience.

and yeah, the men in comics are mostly also drawn for men. this goes for more than physique. women are posed and framed in a much more sexual way. i think if they did that with men, most of the 30 year old guys buying comics now-a-days (i once heard two kids discussing why they didn't read comics- couldn't afford them, and they were quite indignant about the prices) would be _quite_ uncomfortable.

i mean, come on, if women were in charge of comics, would wolverine mack on women with a mug like that ;D?

Hasdrubal · Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

I strongly agree with your comments on the presence of criminal behaviour in the military.

My Division Officer was under a great deal of suspicion by Naval Investigative Services after her husband died mysteriously. They could never decide whether he jumped from the ledge, or if someone pushed him. :-#

Some how I don't feel so bad about giving her a difficult time.

BillyBob · Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

Before we go on...Welcome, kobaltkween! Always great to have new members who actually contribute to discussions.

As I know very little about indie comics, I guess my comments dealt with the mainstream comic world. (Even then, my knowledge is dated because I haven't collected regularly in years.) I agree that strong, intelligent writing can raise all sorts of issues, but I keep returning to the two basic problems that I've had with female characters: (1) women must be insanely hot, and (2) often a male character isn't properly motivated until a female character around him is threatened or hurt. I mean, Wonder Woman is (basically) a positive role model about empowerment, who happens to be a statuesque brunette with an unbelievable body. (Don't even get me started on Power Girl.) And what was the key event in the recent Identity Crisis series? Anyone?

Kobaltkween made an interesting observation about how women are posed in comics. (I mean, how much bending over and back stretching do people really do?) This also hits the very basic way in which sexuality is portrayed in comics. I mean, it pervades comics (sometimes subtly, sometimes not), but it's almost always in the one man - one woman dynamic. Homosexuality? Yeaaah, right, try selling that idea to a comic editor. Men as sex objects? Occasionally, but certainly not to the degree that women are used. (I doubt that you're going to have a lot of "Superman in a towel and a smile" drawings.) And, of course, I think you can walk through the gallery here and see a microcosm of how women are seen in comics.

battle · Forum Newbie Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 4

Personally I'm a big fan of the smaller feminine A-cup and B-cup because those huge D, double D/E cups look very fake.
I don't understand how anyone thinks these women can successfully fight crime with those huge massive breasts bouncing all over the place. I'd think they'd knock themselves out just jumping around much less fighting.

At least Xena had metal breast plates for extra protection.

I'd like to quote an old saying from an old movie called Weird Science from Anthony Micheal Hall:" Any more than a hand full is a waste."

parallax · Forum Newbie Joined: Oct 25, 2001 Posts: 1

tbox · Forum Newbie Joined: Jul 16, 2005 Posts: 1

Well, I tend to disagree... LOL. If you would like to read a comic that doesn't include DD's in it's heroine and tries to depict the sensitive side of sexuality that I think all (most) women excell at, check out sakauble's "My Story by Sara" available at Renderotica for a minor sum.

TBOX

PCGaijin · Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

Well, I bleieve that there's a big difference on how men and women are portraied, specially in heroes comic books. It's true that men are protraied absurdly huge and they all seem like, with almost no ammount of effort, can be physiculturist (hope I spelled it right

) but that could be said to be necessary, since they are supposed to be in good shape, be exelled warriors/fighters and be strong and resistent (even if they powers already grant them so :wink:

), yet women are not portraied as muscle mountains (it would be for most people a not appealing sight) yet as super absurdly long haired syliconed models, not practical, not effectvie, yet eye drawing. Don't take me wrong, I don't think that spoils the comic books, are that women shoud boicot them or anything like it, I enjoy my fare share of super heroes comic books so I'm not the right pearson to complain

As to the fact that it's a male directed industry, just look at the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, there has never been a woman writting the woner woman series :wink:

Oh, I almost forgot, I also believe that the fact that men are portraied the way they are is more to please men than women, since great muscles (against popular belief) is not what most women like the most in guys, yet most men, even in some hidden part of their subconciousness, would like to look more or less like that. Not taken to the absurd points of some comics, of course, but I haven't met one guy who wouldn't want some more muscle in him, to feel strong and all :wink:

My femenine perspective, probably my longest post too :lol:

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Cyber-Butkus · Forum Newbie Joined: Apr 09, 2003 Posts: 2

Interesting topic. I'm not too sure what I should say, since most of the posts so far reflect alot on how I feel about the situation. But, in the interest of good discussion, I'll give it a shot.

I guess you could say that women in comics are eye candy. But, in a sense, isn't that what comic books are in the first place? A heaping helping of quality artwork, with a neat story thrown in for good measure? (Well, most of the time.) Am I wrong?

As far as a heroine being a role model for young girls, I really don't think shortening her chest or putting her in sweatpants is going to get the job done. As it was stated earlier, it's all about the personality. That's why I like Wonder Woman a lot. Not only is she a strong-willed, independent, and heroic woman. She's also very attractive, and is not afraid to show off her good looks, you know?

Oh, well. Mabye I'm just rambling. I'm half-tired, so I guess this post is probably not in my best interests. But, I've never been one to back away from a bad idea before....

Mizrael · Forum Member Joined: Jan 18, 2004 Posts: 258

L8rdaze · Forum Member Joined: Jun 04, 2002 Posts: 65

Comics were always a male dominated thing since I can remember. C'mon the way woman have been drawn...and dressed...it seems they ALL fight better with less on! The guy heroes, especially in the "Image" era were decked out in a kinds of layers and gear! Back in the 60 & 70 women heroines were very timid and whanot...always following orders from their male counterparts! When a villain captured a woman heroine she was always chained or strapped provacatively to some table...(mostly spread eagle) to appeal to the male reader! There was a shift at one point...The Invisible Girl beacame the Invisible Woman...she was possessed by the entity Malice and started "coming out" taking more of a leadership role! She also started being known as the most powerful of the FF4! Scarlet Witch became leader of the Avengers..and now she too has evolved in power to surpass ALL the other members! Same thing with Storm/ Jean Grey/Emma Frost! Women are coming more to the forefront! Storylines of today are SO much different than they were back "in the day!" Super villains wanted to take over the world, NOT rape a women!
Perceptions have changed and stories have gone the "Real World" route! We see more back end story...the relationship side. Heroes have been humanized more! Wasp and Hawkeye screwing around, She-hulk hookin up with Juggernaut! Hyperion and Ms Marvel gettin it on in Exiles! Even in the NEW Avengers (which is cool btw) Spider-Woman is the lone female in the group...and her powers revamped to now include Phermones....SEX APPEAL (HAHA!)
Then there's the Authority....they drink...party, are prejudice...and again have had a women leader in Jenny Sparks! It's definitely a different age of comics and I think will see more of shift to the EXTREME side!

My 2 cents!
L8r!