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Joined: May 30, 2002 Posts: 495 Location: Ohio - USA
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: Homogenization - Round Table
Now we're trying a little something different by asking you what topics you would like to discuss, any many of you have sent me some wonderful ideas, but what else would be expected..you all are great intelligent, wonderful, attractive, creative...sorry making myself sick.
So here we go with the first one, now I won't list who supplied the idea, that way if no one really likes it I'm the only one that gets publicly flogged rather than the nice individuals that send me the ideas.
"Would you agree or disagree programs like Poser limit the amount of creativity an artist has in crafting an image or writing a story?"
Now I don't know about limiting the creativity of an artist, but I do feel it makes it quite easier. Darryl Banks (Green Lantern, D.C. come on people) uses/used poser to help him with his poses for his characters which helps tremendously. I have a drawing major and it was much much easier to draw the human figure when you had a nu.... nice attractive model sitting in front of you....over the last ten years I've picked up a pencil and paper less and less every year..which I kinda regret at times.
So I still don't know about the limiting the creativity part, but I do think we'll see less "traditional artists" (pencil/charcoal/oils..etc) in the years to come and more artists going the way of C.G.
I think it encourages what I would call the democratization of the artistic process. The software makes it possible for people (like myself) who can't draw particularly well using traditional media to create images we have in our head. You still need to have a sense of what's aesthetically pleasing or what makes an arresting image, though, since you can still generate very bad pictures with Poser if you don't put the effort in. But a little effort can reward you, so it opens up opportunities to people who would previously not had them to create art.
This might mean that some traditional artists also switch to using computers more, but I don't think that it necessarily takes anything away from those traditional skills. If you look at what's happened in music, the advent of cheap sampling and synthesis, coupled with the invention of sequencers and trackers mean that you no longer have to be able to play an instrument to create music and this process has opened up to others unwilling/unable to learn the old-fashioned way. However, people still buy music made solely with guitars, orchestras and the like so it hasn't taken anything away from it.
As to whether it limits creativity- well, this is a tricky one. Say you have a character in mind and you use Poser to make it. Well, you may not be able get the character to look exactly like you wanted so you may end up compromising your original vision and simply making do with what's available. And unless you're willing to get your modelling package out and create custom props for every single scene, which takes a long time, there's quite often this sense of compromise which could be seen as stifling creativity. But there's also an argument that says that experimenting and making best use of the tools you have and pushing them to their limits is also a form of creativity and innovation.
As I writer, I can honestly say I'm much happier working with Microsoft Word than I ever was with my old, heavy electric typewriter. But masterpieces have been written both on a word processor and by quill. The technology is always only a tool, the skill to stand out still lies with the craftsman.
If you are lazy artist/hack, then its going to show.
POSER is a tool, just like pencil and paper are tools.
Sometimes folks just get into a groove with a tool.
I remember a rule Theodore Jaslow, a art teacher where I attended Jr/High School stated: You have to know the rules before you can break them.
You can throw in the X-Factor-the intangible innate talent, but ultimately it's about knowing the rules, then you can exceed or break them. POSER is a tool that allows one to do that.
Think about it. We all do not have the same machine, but we do share the same program. How it is it that not all of our work is the same?
I don't think it will really change it. It is a tool and some people will use it but not many. I do think it is a bit of an equalizer but for the most part it or other CG stuff doesn't work that well for what they need. Typical comic book artists have enough experiece to draw most of it out of their head with little need for the other stuff. I try not to use it some for my professional thing since it sometimes takes longer than it would just to draw it but sometimes I need to. I always have a battle on whether to use it but it ends up in a lot of my work. I am trying to get away from it some though.
My humble opinion as it stands is that perhaps when 3D started hitting the main stream there may have been limitations on your expression. There were only the base models available with the programme few people knew how to create textures and models.
The way it is today with websites like this and the great artists who supply both free and at a price, products, textures and tutorials within the medium the limitations have certainly become less.
I am a classical artist (pencil and paper) but I find it fun to find new ways to limit myself less in 3D. Seeing how others are doing this as well...I.E the superhero textures and props...other sites offer other ideas. So as long as you have some degree of want, you can learn how to do these things for your self, thus limiting yourself less.
I started playing about with 3D stuff about 3-4 years ago. I knew nothing about 3D art, yet I observed each new addition of poser has brought something new and new way to be limitless. I am still not very good at it, but considering I was about 16 years old before I drew a picture I was proud of 4 years is only a quarter of that time.
It is the same as much in life, if you let it limit you then it probably will. If you learn and understand you can take those limits that little higher. I only feel limited now because I can't create models from scratch using 3D something I would love to be able to do...again something if I want. I can get rid of that limitation.
Joined: Jun 28, 2004 Posts: 190 Location: between here and insanity
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject:
You guys pretty much summed it up. Anyone can use a tool as a short cut. Anyone can use it as a cheat. But at the same time, you can tell a vast difference between those who use it as a crutch and those who use it as a tool like a brush or clay. It has it's own limitations, but it's how you use it and get around these limitations that show your commitment and creativity as an artist - you control the tool rather than let the tool dictate what you can and can't do.
Me personally, Poser's been a boon. While I liked to draw, I was never really happy or consistant with results no matter how hard I practiced, and don't even get me started on inking (shudder). Now, sometimes to get what I want out of Poser I have to kitbash something or use outside software (like Photoshop), but I'm even more prolific now than I was with traditional tools and I'm much more satisfied with the results.
And like Sturk mentioned, I have heard of people with MS or like conditions who use software like Poser to express themselves and do a very good job at it. _________________ "Flash, quit heckling the supervillain!" - Green Lantern
The Ether Forge: http://www.stkp.com/POSER/
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Homogenization - Round Table
Me, I mostly agree with GlitchGirl. While I was a fairly capalbe pencil and paper aritist, my figures(especially the faces) all started to look the same.
While this may have been a sign of possible laziness to come, I think Poser has allowed me to more quickly realize my ideas, as well as allowing me to more easily individualize my characters.
Poser for me is also much more forgiving. Once inked(or heavily lined in pencil) I found it very difficult to correct errors.
While Poser may allow for more "shortcuts," I think it has freed me up in many more ways(I'll still sometimes spend more time in Poser 'twinking' a character than I would on paper)
Well, There's my two-cents worth on the subject _________________ Keep your mouth shut and nothing wierd will happen
Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 787 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Homogenization - Round Table
Those of you with whom I've have had private discussions about Poser art know that I'm really on the fence with this issue. On the one hand, I agree entirely with what a lot of you have said regarding the fact that Poser opens up an artistic outlet for those who might not otherwise have one. It's a very accessible product and relatively easy to use and I am all for more people expressing themselves artistically. But on the other hand, I also think the easiness of it all is a huge downfall, as is the collective mentality of the "community" that says embrace the shiny new toys and join the back-patting club. I feel that the ease with which people can create decent-looking renders via Poser doesn't create a fertile breeding ground for creativity. Granted, I can't speak for anyone else, but my "creative best" is only ever really achieved when I have to work hard to overcome problems or work around limitations of the media in which I'm working. What opportunity is there for that kind of growth when your art consists of someone else's figure, using someone else's pose, wearing someone else's clothes, with someone else's textures, lit by someone else's lights? I've all but stopped browsing the Poser galleries at Renderosity, for example, for that very reason -- I can't tell the artists apart anymore without reading their signatures. Sure, there are major exceptions -- I can identify a calum5 piece at first glance -- but by and large, the majority of artists there are becoming like the V3 characters in the Marketplace: THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME. To me, that is the biggest problem with software like Poser. And some people are okay with that. I can think of three artists off the top of my head that have been doing the exact same render over and over again for ages, just dressing their Barbie in different skimpy outfits. Obviously,. they don't have a problem with being creatively stagnant I don't profess to be a master of the art form, but I do try my damnedest to try new things and avoid repeating myself artistically. I don't always succeed, but I try. I don't think enough people try to do that and I think the easy access to Poser toys and the fact that you get a billion ass-kissing comments for doe-eyed porn queens in chain mail bikinis stifle creativity on a massive scale. _________________ Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com
I agree with most of Orca's comments about the community, but not his conclucusion.
Yes, most naked (and semi naked) Vicky's in temples with swords look a like.
There is a ton of modern day "colorform" art being vomited out.
I don't look at it as "limiting" creativity. I look at it as making the creative process aviable to people who otherwise wouldn't be. You get bad art because people are getting into it who never otherwise would have.
Let's face it, the world at large treats creativity like a case of herpies.
More and more, people are not only NOT being taught to think for themselves, but being rewarded for NOT doing it.
Poser lowers the bar on the effort to get something out, and let's these creatively "retarded" people start creating for the probably the first time in their adult lives.
If you don't use your artistic skill they DO deteriorate. I was an art major in high school. But lack of practice took it's toll, and my pencil and paper skills are not what they used to be. I still draw good enough to impress most people, but not as good as I used to.
Now imagine you someone who hasn't spent most of his life being creative?
You go into a paint program and your stick figures make you're kids laugh. That's that.
In Poser, you can actually get a positive result and start building that visual vocabulary that our school systems all but beat out of you.
That's a plus in my opinion even if the result belongs on your refrigerator door rather than in an online gallery.
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 646 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Homogenization - Round Table
The over reliance on V3 and M3 is becoming monotonous. In some ways the tendency repeats the repetition of style in comics. Most of the comics heroes are muscular guys, and the heroines are mostly giant hooter queens.
As kids we tolerated Jack Kirby's facial portraits that all looked the same. Johnny Storm (Human Torch), Steve Rogers (Capt. America), and Clint Barton (Hawkeye) were really all the same guy when Jack drew them. The reason we tolerated the similarity was Kirby's bombastic sense of exaggerated motion, and story telling abilities.
If the artist is telling a good story, the viewer can suspenend the belief that "it's just another Vicky". There are too many gallery renders that don't attempt to show action or anything resembling a story.
If you're old enough, check out Shorterbus' story on Renderotica's Main Gallery, "The Ultimate Excuse". It's still a great story, even though the main character/victim is a Vicky figure that most of us could make for ourselves. In no way does it detract from the story. The story telling ability transcends the artist's figures.
Joined: Jun 28, 2004 Posts: 190 Location: between here and insanity
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:19 pm Post subject:
Again, with the case of Michael and Vicki, they're just tools. You can use them straight out of the box and they look straight out of the box. You work with the dials a while (ESPECIALLY the expression dials, it amazes me how many peopel forget to use them), you get something a little more unique.
I can only speak for myself, but I've been gravitating away from the "big 2" over time. Even back when we were on V2 and M2, I had them both, but I hardly ever used Vicki for anything. Even now, I've got V3 & M3, but I think I've done one render with V3 so far, and while I used M3 a number of times, I've started to move towards less standard base models. I know around here, David seems to becoming the figure of choice for a lot of characters.
V3 & M3 are a nice place to start simply because there is a lot of stuff available out there where a new person can start to "find themselves" and that's good. Kinda like what Rattler said, it gives someone new who may never have tried to make a picture of a person a good starting point and something that gives satifying results right off the bat. But like in any art, everyone who picks up a pencil or brush isn't going to stick with it. Once the intial thrill wears off, many drift on to other things but some are going to stick with it. Some are going to keep churning out the same kind of thing because it seems to work, and some are actually going to explore new stuff.
One down side is that Poser "communities" in general do reward the whole "naked vicki" standard. Naked pinups get more views and generally more comments, regardless of the quality (except in extreme cases). Every one of them is going to have at least a handful of comments saying "That's FABULOUS!" even if the eyes are blank and the hair is rigid as cement and everything in the picture is stock just because a large chunk of the audience doesn't know better. If you're new and you decide that you want to try something different than the standard "naked vicki" image, then prepare to watch your comments and views drop exponetially so the lesson learned is "don't try to do anything but pinups". And that's one thing I wish we'd get away from because if anything, this does stifle creativity in Poserdom. There's room for pinups, but there's should also be room for stuff that's not just glamor shots.
Sadly, I don't think there's a way to change that. A number of people who browse the galleries on R'osity and the like are looking for titilation, ergo, they don't care about images that don't include the nudity tag and are therefor not going to reward those who want to stretch themselves beyond the pinup mode with views and comments.
That's not a problem with the program though, but more of a problem with how the viewing public is wired and that's a whole OTHER topic for another time. _________________ "Flash, quit heckling the supervillain!" - Green Lantern
The Ether Forge: http://www.stkp.com/POSER/
Hey! I resemble that remark. _________________ "I'd add a legitimate comment here, but that would mean reading everything, which I have no patience for." - Slynky
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Homogenization - Round Table
I see a mixed feeling on this topic. Hopefully I can add something to this. This might take a little to explain my standing on it so bear with me
Over the years I've used or tried literally hundreds of various 3D and 2D programs to do my work. Everything from 3DStudio 4.0 (the old old DOS version which I was initially trained on in 3D) to 3DS Max, Lightwave, Painter, 3D Paint, Raydream Studio....you name it I used it.
Finally over the 11 or so years in this type of work I found a set group of programs that get the job done and upgrade as they do. Poser, Bryce, Photoshop, Rhino 3D are the core ones with a very limited of 3rd party apps in the mix.
I'm also a traditional artist and look at these programs just like I do any other "art supply". When you find that pencil and lead type that feels just right, or the right type of canvas, paints, markers you just know it's the right tool for the job. I have nearly 200 various sculpting tools, but when push comes to shove I only use a few slect ones for nearly every piece I work on. Same goes for 3D work.
Now for the actualy question " "Would you agree or disagree programs like Poser limit the amount of creativity an artist has in crafting an image or writing a story?"
My answer is on both sides of this.
For the most part people use art programs to express themselves somehow. Wether it be an idea, story, emotion or just for the fun of doing it, it's a way for someone to express themselves though media.
Poser like other programs these days have a huge variety of 3rd party add-on's which nearly every site has for free or for sale. These can be good and bad for the creative aspect of an artist.
Here's a quick breakdown of what 3D entails first.
Modeling
Mapping
Texturing
Posing/Scene Setup (lighting and atmosphere, etc)
Postwork
On the side of good, not everyone is good or can do all the above and the available resources make it possible for someone who can't texture to have one for their models or someone who can't model to have the model they need to get the job done. this also helps the multi-talented 3D artist from having to re-invent the wheel. If they can make it but it's allready made it saves time so why make it again if you don't have to.
On the bad side this can be very limiting to most "artists". I've seen to many 3D images that are nothing but free and bought items just slapped into a program, rendered and called art. Now I'm not knocking this at all, we all started this way in one form or another when the communities began to grow. We wanted to try everything that looked cool..or didn't
The two tools that just seem to be unused a lot are patience and creativity. Work beyond the tools you have and you will be surprised of the results. Learn the programs outside of just the Load and Render buttons.
For an example with one well used item Michael 3. (just cause I have an example handy)
The following image (minus the female character) were all done using Michael 3 and the same base store bought texture.
Yes this is Michael 3.
So basicly to sum all this babble up....it's not what tools you use to do the art. It's how you use the tools you have to get the art done.
Last edited by GDeep on Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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I don't profess to be a master of the art form, but I do try my damnedest to try new things and avoid repeating myself artistically. I don't always succeed, but I try. I don't think enough people try to do that and I think the easy access to Poser toys and the fact that you get a billion ass-kissing comments for doe-eyed porn queens in chain mail bikinis stifle creativity on a massive scale.
