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Joined: May 30, 2002 Posts: 495 Location: Ohio - USA
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: Censorship - Round Table
Sorry it's been awhile, been dealing with power outages, cable outages and employees that don't pay #&%$ #^$*^ #$%@# @!^$@ attention to what they're doing...anyway
Here's a topic for all (middle)ages.
Censorship, we all know it, we love/hate it, even here we have a form of censorship...no nudity in the galleries! But what about censorship of the classic arts?
I'm not talking about Michelangelo's David or Rennaissance paintings or nude photography, I'm talking cartoons and not your adult cartoons, I'm referring to Tom & Jerry, Bugs Bunny those type of cartoons.
Have we become as a society so afraid of upsetting someone, or being sued or so politically correct that we have to sensor our classic cartoons?
I've grown up watching all of these cartoons and (no comments) I've turned out alright. I'm not a serial killer, I'm not going around committing racist acts or pummeling people for no reason, stealing etc.
Or have we as parents fallen into the habit of blaming what our children read/watch rather than taking responsiblity for the way our children turn out???? I went to a rated R movie this weekend....who's in the row in front of me... a mother and here three children ranging from probably 7-9 years of age.
Not on this exact subject but dealing with censorship...I've heard that over in England a school has banned any reading of books in the classroom that deal in anyway with pigs (ie Charlotte's Web) because they don't want to offend the (I believe) Muslim students parents.
Aarrrgh....anyway what are all of your happy thoughts?
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 646 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
In order to help the under 30's, who have never seen unedited classic cartoons, here's a list of links I've put together. You old 'cusses will also enjoy some of these sites.
I've placed the links that are the most germain to the discussion at the top of the list. Everyone should check out the Coal Black toon.
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
I believe you hit the nail on the head with not wanting to take responsibility. I have seen a lot of the bugs and road runner cartoons that went under the knife and they don't make sense. I even remember kids I was with that saw them and were confused and thought they were lame because they edited so much out (cousins and daughter of a friend of my dads I think). It is really a shame that many people won't know the toons the right way and the way that has influenced generations. Of course they don't even show cartoons much anymore so the point is growing mute.
Actually, a collection of 56 of the best Looney Tunes has just been released on DVD and the packaging boasts that they are completely original and uncut, so there is still hope after all!
I don't recall ever seeing any cases of criminal acts where ther perpetrator was inspired by the events portrayed in a cartoon, so that's over-cautious nannying for a start. As for other forms of censorship- those that have come about because of the climate of political correctness- it's almost universally the case that the things that get banned or censored do so because of someone in authority who is NOT actually a member of the sector of society that is supposedly at risk of being offended. As a society, we increasingly don't wait for someone to actually say whether or not they find something offensive- and they usually don't, in most cases- instead we seek to stamp out things which could POTENTIALLY cause offence. This is clearly madness, since one can imagine all sorts of reasons why pretty much anything at all could potentially cause offence.
I haven't heard about the 'pigs' issue that Sharby mentions, but I can certainly believe that it could well be true. We've had some ludicrous cases crop up in the UK from time to time. Probably the most famous was when the authorities insisted that the nursery rhyme 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' should be changed to 'Baa Baa Green Sheep', presumably to avoid racial offence. There were, of course, several problems with this thought process: Firstly, there are no green sheep in reality, whereas black sheep are quite common. Secondly, the rhyme in no way suggests that the sheep in question is inferior because it is black (on the contrary, if anything- it is a prodigious provider of wool!) and- most importantly- no black person had even raised the issue in the first place, probably because- like most sane people- they saw nothing remotely offensive in it.
Deliberately offensive and hate-engendering media quite rightly has no place in the mainstream. It can be sought out by interested parties in the fringes and underground of popular culture if one wishes. I'm not an advocate of banning free speech in any form, though I do believe the mass mainstream media probably functions better with some modicum of control. However, I don't want someone to tell me what offends me- I have my own sensibilities, thank you.
I do not believe that the cartoon-makers of old had any real axe to grind regarding stereotypes in their toons; these were commonly held ideas that now seem a bit quaint. Certainly not the stuff of great racial hatred. And everyone was a fair target- look at Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam- white Americans.
There's no evidence these things have warped anybody's mind over the last 60 years and I strongly suspect they won't for the next 6000 years either. If your child grows up to be a psychopathic killer or a Nazi it won't be because he's learned it from Bugs and Daffy; you'd be better off looking a lot closer to home for the clues.
Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 787 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
I think censorship is, for the most part, @#$%ing @#$%er @#$%. I mean, what do they @#$% @#$% @#$%er? Freedom of expression is really @#$%ing important, so the @#$%er @#$% should interefere with that as little as @#$%ing possible.
Joking aside, I think all of this has gone way too far. Today's children are basically so insulated that they're growing up without a clue as to what the real world is all about. Obviously I'm not just talking about cernsoring cartoons, but that's still a good example. Kids aren't allowed to get hurt these days. We have this paranoid mentality about everything from cartoons to playground equipment (there's a school not far from here that TORE DOWN its playground equipment because some kid fell off it and broke his arm) to pretty much anything else. These kids are so overprotected that when they have to deal with things on their own, such as going away to university, they can't function. That's one thing about going back to school -- I'm old enough to cope without any problems and I'm old enough to see which of my fellow students have been coddled and have never had to be responsible for anything. _________________ Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
I agree with the people not wanting to take personal responsablility! You read about it/see it all the time in the courts and on TV... It wasn't my fault I was speeding/drunk/High on Drugs/flunked the test because I'd rather play than study. It's a refusing to take responsability for ones actions. Which has slowly evolved since the 60's.... The Vintage cartoons took a Hit in the late 70's when they came out with the none violent(?)/ educational movement in cartoons...... I used to watch the old cartoons, Saturday morning shoot'em up westerns, even the three stooges... But I also grew up knowing that if I tried any of the stunts pulled on them I'd have to face the parents... ( feared them more than the cops....Who I was raised to respect) No violence, just a heathy respect for thier authority. And an understanding I'd have to face the music for anything I did. With the Me First attitude I've seen, it's evolved into the Me First with No Responsabiltiy at any cost attitude.
Joined: Jun 13, 2002 Posts: 49 Location: Bogotá, Colombia
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
Censorship depends, for example some cartoons are very violent, in some old cartoons they make fun of africanamericans making them idiots with big lips and making fun of the way they talk, in second world war was ok to make fun of japanese people but not today.
Japanese have different types of comics one is hentai that is kind of adult sexual comic, Japan is going to make a law for comics of this type because some young criminals got the ideas of how to rape girls from this comic.
Kids learn everything if they watch violence they will learn but dont blame the cartoons and comics if the parents donīt care donīt teach and donīt guide they donīt have a point of reference about what is good or bad, what is real and what is not real..
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
Gustvoc's comment makes a big point:
"...in some old cartoons they make fun of africanamericans making them idiots with big lips and making fun of the way they talk..."
You see, we don't all talk like that, some do. Just like any other accent you find thoughout the states. BUT when portrayed on the big screen - like the classic were or even on the small screen now it perpetuates the stereotype that we all do - whether it was made as a joke or with ill intent doesn't matter, what matters is stopping it.
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 646 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
I have a question for gfactory. It's important to ask for your point of view.
In view of the fact that there are so very few Black toon characters, (Fat Albert and Chef on South Park, being the only memorable ones I can think of), would you prefer that Black characters be totally eliminated from new cartoons rather than taking the risk of offending someone?
Would excluding Black characters from a new cartoon be a form of racism?
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 646 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
The way cartoons are developed today with studio and network executives, focus groups, and "Standards and Practices" controlling everything we watch on television, the chances of seeing a cartoon with any material that's the least bit "non-homogenous" is really remote. The animators and writers have little or no control over the finished products. The bureacratic processes of television have probably accomplished racism by exclusion when examining the scarcity of Black cartoon characters.
When "Coal Black" and the other Looney Tunes were being made, Leon Schlesinger, the man in charge of all WB cartoon productions, typically didn't look at anything produced in his studio until it was a completely finished film. As a producer, his job was much easier than producer's jobs are today. He could follow the guide lines of the "Hays Code", rather than worry about the latest spin on political correctness. On rare occasions, he did edit a few items out if they went against the code. Overall, he practiced artistic freedom, and was willing to take risks when working with directors like Bob Clampett.
I included Bob Clampett's "Coal Black" in the list of links above because his work doesn't deserve to be called racist. He was one of the few cartoon directors to hire Black voice actors. To understand his work, listen to the power and speed of the Jazz music in the cartoon. It has an incredible energy and pace that propels the speed of the animation and jokes. The music is based on the work of Black composers. Clampett's characters may look silly, like any other cartoon, but the Jitter-bug dance scenes and the the zoot-suit character were a common sight in night clubs then. Zoot-suits were "the" style then. The characters wouldn't have looked as silly back then.
Clampett didn't intend any racism in his production. If anything, he took the risk of antagonizing backward White southern audiences by making a cartoon featuring an all Black cast of characters. If there was racism in the theaters when "Coal Black" was shown, it was in people's hearts, and not on the screen.
No movie or cartoon has the power to control what's in a person's heart. It's when we lose freedom of expression to censorship the heart becomes corrupt.
Last edited by Hasdrubal on Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: May 30, 2002 Posts: 495 Location: Ohio - USA
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
Good point Has....
Now this isn't exactly on topic but it irked me when I heard it on the radio this morning.
A school in New Hampshire..... the principal (female) has erradicated the word "Freshmen" from the school, why...because it ends with the word "men" and feels it doesn't include the entire student body (females), so all "Freshmen" will now be referred to as "nineth graders", I guess she also has plans to eliminate Sophomore, Junior and Senior as well...???
(I didn't get the full story my eyes were rolling and headshaking were distracting me...)
Which I find ironic since woman, women and female all have the the male term in them...I can think a few words that don't, but aren't really appropriate right now in this forum.
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 646 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
Actually it's not far off the subject when real people start acting like cartoon characters. The mayor of South Park could easily be substituted for the school principle in the story.
It could be argued that nothing happening in public schools really matters since they can't teach reading or math anyway.
Joined: Jul 14, 2002 Posts: 12 Location: The Humid South
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship - Round Table
We view censorship with a very finite, pinpoint brushstroke. However, there's really just three kinds: government, corporate and personal. They all achieve the same thing: mute one message so that another may prevail.
First, government censorship. It is widely believed the government cannot and should not censor things. The First Amendment of the US Constitution speaks volumes to that. Key amongst our freedoms is freedom of speech. Certainly government has tried to quash any number of forms of free speech, including artistic expression. It's failed on almnost every account. When it fails, it gets corporations to do the dirty work. That's part No. 2.
Corporations take up the heavy lifting when it comes to censorship. And don't think of corporations in the "Coca Cola" sense. Think of corporations as any private organization -- business, religious or otherwise -- that wants to seel whatever wares its peddling. Further, think of the rash of censorship that's going on with companies squashing bloggers who defame company policies (the companies are also squashing jobs and the blogs). But is that really censorship? The employee signed on to do the company's bidding. He's biting the hand that feeds it. However, the employee still has a right to free speech. What about if you hang a picture of The Incredible Hulk in your cubicle? Of Jesus Christ? And then you get asked to take it down? Told to wear a suit coming and going to basketball games (Hello, NBA!) Censorship or company policy? On that accord (and getting to my original point), the NBA wants the message to be that players are professionals who act, sound and look like professionals. The players cried "censorship" because they wanted individual style and culture to clamor through. The NBA won.
Finally, personal censorship. "I don't want my son to see that." However, didn't whatever artist that created it want everyone to see that piece of work? Explore its message? Did it matter if it was age appropriate? Who determines that and, for that matter, when that determination is made, isn't that a form of censorship (audience/publics exclusion)? It's funny how when we become parents, our open minds suddenly get a set of gatekeepers. For instance, "South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut" is a fantastic movie that's fu nand incorporates great messages of the day. As a 20-something adult, I'd encourage anyone to go see it. But as a parent, would I allow anyone under, say, 13 to see it. No way. And I certainly wouldn't let my child watch it until she got the jokes and I could watch it with her to see her reaction (gatekeepers, censorship, messages).
Every time someone raises their hackles about censorship, he wants to tout a clear, shining example. "Here it is! They are censoring us!" Comics did it for a while. Books were burned in Berlin. Mapplethorpe caught hell in NYC. And so on. However, in most cases, there fails to be one litmus test that makes us all let out a collective gasp of surprise. Mapplethorpe stuff being censored? Sure, on the surface, bad. But he had photos of guys ramming horsecrops up other guys' rear-ends. The definition of art, umm, pushed to new boundaries.
The problem is that when it comes time to define censorship, the argument is never so simple; it rarely favors the artist; and the hype about censoring the material (remember how studios didn't want to touch "Passion of the Christ"?) usually produces a bigger bang on the buck than any positive publicity ever would have beforehand.
Before anyone goes contesting censorship, circumstances and thought about exactly how someone got to those circumstances (i.e., did they get there because they wanted a fight; because their work simply formed to be that sort of work?) should dictate the moment. Otherwise (and I'm all for this as an artist who likes to get paid in paper rather than praise), it's just a very good publicity stunt. _________________ ---|----------------
Yojimbo, A Humble Servant
http://www.jasontudor.com
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