Copycat art

finister · Forum Member Joined: Oct 21, 2002 Posts: 94

So there's probably twelve of us now reading these forums but damn, this bugs me.

I am the worst artist here but I would dread having to make work based on someone elses characters or works and all that seems to be around here is art made by incredible artists BUT made of characters and stories NOT of their own.

I simply do not get it.

Don't you guys and gals want to make your own characters?

What is the draw to making ten thousand renders of Superman or Batman? I simply don't get it.

Flame away because I deserve to understand why your genius is being wasted on 40 year old heroes.

Hasdrubal · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Copycat art

I attribute the lack of original characters in the gallery to an obsequious obsession with hit-counter numbers.

Personally I find it discouraging that my crappy Batman video on Youtube gets 10 times the hits that my more skillfully rendered Power Ducky cartoons get. I slaved for months working on those cartoons, only to find the public is brandname-brainwashed.

finister · Forum Member Joined: Oct 21, 2002 Posts: 94

Should not have posted this while drunk on New year's Eve...

came off a lot harsher than I meant it to.

Thanks for the reply Hasdrubal.

Someone PM'd me a great explanation and it showed me a new way of looking at it

1) folks love the established characters
2) trying to make the established characters is also a challenge to raise ones artistic skills...

There were morewhich maybe that person would explain here as well...it was well thought out

Hasdrubal · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Copycat art

It isn't your hang over talking at all. There needs to be more creator owned original characters.

There are too many among us willing to slave their lives away and give away every idea we have to some boss, who will probably outsource all the work anyway. Who wants to be like Joe Simon fightiing Marvel for the rights to Captain America in his old age?

Who wants to be like John Kricfalusi and be fired for creating excellent characters like Ren and Stimpy, and then have to watch Nickelodeon run their creations into the damned ground?

The same damned thing happened to Walt Disney in his early career with his own original character Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. Disney lost control of Oswald back in the 20's and didn't regain control of the character again until 2007.

itisitex · Forum Member Joined: Sep 01, 2002 Posts: 177 Location: Tx

Not only is it a challenge to create established but also to stay true to their persona. That topic could lead on to a big soap box so we will leave that.

Creating one own characters wouldn't be too hard since however they turn out is how the artist indented. And as you may have seen holding on to ones own creation is a lot harder since once it is seen by the public others take it and pass it on as their own work. Search different forms and it is sickening how often it happens.

Copyrights are a different animal in its own right. In the U.S. and I guess even internationally the artist has a copyright to the tangible work as it is completed meaning each artist owns the rights to their works not the characters for that you have to fill out a few forms and pay a bit of cash. The there is public domain laws and a bunch of other crap.

GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 615

I think a big portion of it is name recognition. You put Batman in the title and people will click it, you put The Darkling in the title and no one knows what it is and probably won't click it, and they won't find it in a search, etc.

The only way to sort of get around that is if someone who gets a lot of hits puts up an image. Various people have tried to start up their own semi brand (a marvel/DC free zone where super heroes about and are loosely tied into a new world) for people to draw from and create and they normally go no where.

People are drawn to what they know and sometimes it is hard to get them to branch out. Even worlds outside of the norms (like The Authority, etc.) sometimes take a bit to catch on.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

Don't take this the wrong way guys... but why would I RISK getting my own characters stolen by showing them in pin ups here?

If I'm developing a character, and a story to go with him, it's an investment of my time and knowledge that I probably hope to make money of off at some point.

Getting a pat on the back from the 12 members of this forum for a good render isn't worth that 13th lurker switching the color scheme of my guy and making a mint off my designs.

There is also no way to give you the back story on my character in the few pics I can render, so you CAN'T be as emotionally involved in my creation as in the "classics".

I'm going to be a bastard and critical examine some of the work here. Among the serialized images posted here, how many are more than "bullet time" renders of the same action scene from different angles. The best I've probably seen are 5 or 6 4:3 renders of really piss poor visual story telling.

People do nice pinups of their favorite characters here, but for original characters, we can't really support doing it right, and doing it wrong has the potential of sending us slinking away into obscurity mumbling "that was my idea".

It's all risk, precious little satisfaction and no payoff.

The best we can hope is that one day one of us will get something together enough to be successful, and THEN once we've staked our claim, come back say... "Hey... this mine!"

That's my $.02.

captainzammo · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Copycat art

I have an original character or two that I DO post here, I LIKE posting the images here and feel completely comfortable with that. White Owl has been kicking around on the web since 1997 (Happy 11 years, eh?) but I only recently got into the 3d art.

As to why I like doing Wonder Woman, or some of the other characters--its two fold.

1) I Like those characters, and I have a lot of reference material for them (ie I own comic books that have reference poses in them)

2) Additionally, I know there are others who like to see these characters as well, so it's fun to do them--there's an instant recognition factor so to speak.

So I guess its true--some of it IS the hit count (though I don't really care about that) I think it's more the COMMENT count. People respond if one does something wrong or right with a named hero or heroine...but if it's your own character--though YOU may be vested in it, they aren't; and may not feel as comfortable commenting.

finister · Forum Member Joined: Oct 21, 2002 Posts: 94

I'm glad to read so many replies - I honestly didn't know the pros stole characters so blatantly...that's too bad.

Many responses have opened my eyes - thanks for explaining your point of views

GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 615

The thing is that I really don't see a professional comic book designer coming in here and stealing designs. Heck, most of them probably haven't heard of us and normally they like to redesign stuff or whatever.

captainzammo · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Copycat art

While you're probably right about a Comic book aritst coming in here to steal ideas, the fact is, they DO walk among us on line. A group I moderated (Before Yahoo shut me down) had George Perez among it's members. Gail Simone is known to post on the DC message boards

And I defy anyone to tell me the LAWYERS for DC and Marvel aren't out there, making certain we don't violate their copyrights or trademarks. Fair usage for fan stories and fan art is generally all right, as long as it isn't defamatory.

But this isn't what the focus of this post was about.

It is kinda neat though, to think someone might see my ideas and get in touch with me. While it's frightening to think someone might see some of my ideas and appropriate them.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

It sucks... but a friend of mine is in litigation with BBi right now over a character he created, and has been developing for over 13 years.

He did some promo work for them and showed them his designs. They passed on any deal with him and a year and half later a character almost exactly like his shows up in the new Yughio card playing game... from BBi.

That's a case where they have clear knowledge not available to the public, and they did it anyway.

They can't UNRELEASE their character... it'll just become rare and better known.

THEIR character is already in the public now, so if my friend does do his comic book there is going to be brand confusion, or the public might think HIS character is the knock off.

All he can really get out BBi is cash reparations.

Now imagine if all he had to work with was the IP logs Diane MIGHT be able to provide. :-o

Like or not... this is a business. Even if you just want to tell your stories and don't care about the business end, some one else might. What's worse is a case like my friends is where they steal just one aspect of your character and there is no connection to your story anymore.

lundqvist · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 02, 2002 Posts: 5

Came rather late to this thread

I'd guess that the reasons people render other creator's characters might come down to (among other things):

1) Fan art
2) The assumption that well-known characters will attract more attention
3) A test of skill to see how close they can emulate the design of the original figure(s) in 3D

I've only occasionally tried (1), never for reason (2) and not very often because of (3) - I'd muck up other people's designs so much it would be embarassing

Then, of course, there's the copyright issues. Working with your own characters/universe is more satisfying to me, but I like to see recreations done well as much as anyone.

WonderBoy · Forum Member Joined: Jun 03, 2002 Posts: 14

The reason why for me is quite simple. I like getting feedback on my work. And what I get, when I post my original, or semi-original characters? Is a lecture on male anatomy in a stylized format intended in many ways to resemble the anime ideal of male beauty. Look at my Wonder Boy, Super Lad and at my character Astral, as well as my image 'Chorus of the Fury'. Look at the number of comments they got. Then look at ANY image I've done of Catwoman or Wonder Woman, and see how many comments THEY'VE gotten. I enjoy telling a story with my artwork, but I rarely post that art HERE. I post it in YaoiGallery or DeviantArt, which is more open to my style of art than here.

The fact of the matter is, like it or not, this is a comic book site. Original characters won't attract more hits than an established character, unless it's an artist that's already incredibly popular or borderline pornography.