Superheroes versus Realism...

JDKammerer · Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 4:20 pm Post subject: Superheroes versus Realism...

I figured we could address this topic in a new thread, because I actually believe that this could turn out to be a very spirited conversation that might inspire people to talk about in great depth.

The question is:

Do Superheroes have a place in today's society? And if so, what do we really need "saving" from?

My View is we don't...

Delussions of needing saving is a view that the government would certainly love for us to have, so we can sign away more of our "freedom" over to them, to "lord" over us like we're sheep.

Society (through media and entertainment and in everyday life) has forced upon us, even on kids today, the fact that we cannot count on anyone but ourselves.

That no one is going to fly in in blue tights and a red cape and save us... we are on our own.

Like the character Tyler Durden said in the movie Fight Club:

"We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives.

We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars.

But we won't.
And we're slowly learning that fact.
And we're very, very pissed off."

The truth is this: We are the creators of our own destiny, we are our own heroes and you don't need superpowers to observe, adapt and overcome our life's trials and tribulations.

Is it depressing?
Only if you let it be.
And I choose not to let it.

I think the word "hero" has a different meaning to me today, than it did when I was younger.

Unlike when I was younger and just getting into comics, I now know that a hero doesn't need to have superpowers or adamantium claws to be a hero.

Heroes to me are everyday people who strive to make their life and the lives of those around them just a little better. They are the men and women who, everyday, place other lives above their own.

Do I think that there is a place and a need for heroes today?
Yes.

But do we need "superheroes" to save us?
No.

What are your thoughts on this?

~Jack

BillyBob · Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Superheroes versus Realism...

Wow, some very interesting views, Jack, and a lot of things to discuss. (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm separating form and content; your comments in the other discussion have made me reconsider the idea that comics as a media might be dying. However, the need for superheroes is another thing.)

First, I have a very different view of what comics do. (At least, what comics do for me.) In my opinion, superheroes aren't here to save us. Rather, they (or at least the ones who are written correctly) show us both the paragon of perfection and the basic fallacies of humanity. Has Superman remained a permanent part of American (and world) culture because of his powers? My feeling is no; he's known because of who he IS, not what he DOES. He is noble, generous, loyal--all character traits that we admire. Ask someone in Berlin or Rome or Caracas who Batman is; most likely you'll get some mention of him being a badass, true, but you are just as likely to get comments that show Batman remains a fixture in culture because he shows what humans can be. Driven, angry, intent on vengeance, true, but still possessing of the quality of mercy. (How many times has the Joker f'ed up his life? How many times has Batman said "That's it. It ends now," yet never actually killed the clown?)

Superheroes and comics are America's myths. Ask your average 10-year-old who Gilgamesh or Hercules is, or who Buddha or Mohammed is. Now, ask the same kid who Superman is, or Batman, or Spider-Man.

As for superheroes "saving us," I agree that a powerful message in society is "the only one you can depend on is yourself." (As you mention, countering that is the recurring current image of "government as protector." You can't stop the terrorists, but the Department of Homeland Security can. But I digress.) I think that kids have always discerned that there really is no Superman; instead, firemen will save you from a burning building and a policeman will stop a robber. (And I wholly agree with your statement about heroes being everywhere. Ideally, kids should be able to look no further than Mom and Dad to see heroes; sadly, often that isn't possible.)

Superheroes have never been around to save us. Provide a cathartic outlet, yes. (C'mon, how many of us would've loved a "Wolverine vs. al Qaeda" graphic novel?) Serve as myths and legends, yes. (And really, are the tales of Gilgamesh or Beowulf THAT much different from Superman and Batman?) If nothing else, comics (and in all honesty, all fantasy and sci/fi) have the power to show the tremendous heroism that almost all of us are capable of demonstrating.

Ironbear · Forum Member Joined: Nov 06, 2001 Posts: 1038

Interesting. I'm going to have to give this one a bit of thought and come back to it.

I agree with BillyBob that that's the main context of comics: they're todays myths - along with Fanstasy and Sci-Fi. However... I've noticed that the size of our myths are shrinking, and our heroes are shrinking with them.

Smaller men and women breed smaller heroes? ;]
_________________
"I'd add a legitimate comment here, but that would mean reading everything, which I have no patience for." - Slynky

Click Here.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

My observation is that the heroes are becoming the common man who steps up to incredible odds. In this same vein, people like Neo and the Jedi Knights take on tremendous training to rise above normal human ability levels. Augmented humans (androids, etc.) will likely always be a theme, as well.

I think that heroes will always be an inspiration, and I am seeing the young female population follow the same trend, but different heroes (especially Xena, in my observation). Living life is itself either a heroic effort or a waste of time.

Do we need super-heroes, people we could never be? Maybe not as much as before when we had the thunderclap of the world's megadeath ever-present. The kids today never experienced that, so may not have the same need that we had as children. But heroes, yes. Always. Heroes that have abilities beyond the norm that we can aspire to achieve? Yes. Always.

Ironbear · Forum Member Joined: Nov 06, 2001 Posts: 1038

Yup. That's it in a nutshell, Sys.

"Something to aspire to"

That's really all a mythic archetype or a "hero" is: something to aspire to. Something larger than life to draw from, to cause one to try for the "reach that exceeds one's grasp" that Milton spoke of.
_________________
"I'd add a legitimate comment here, but that would mean reading everything, which I have no patience for." - Slynky

Click Here.

kero · Forum Newbie Joined: May 20, 2004 Posts: 3

Hi, all:

I saw 'The Last Samurai' as a DVD with deep emotion.
That was an excellent movie, but the scene about the ninja, there seems to be some misunderstanding.

First of all, Japanese traditional ninjas are also respected Samurai.

Second, the ceiling never creak noises as they walk.
In most cases, they step on their back of hands carefully, just like a Japanese gecko.
I know the expert ninja can walk with quick steps and never tear a hole in the wetted thin paper.

Probably, Kero is not a ninja...But if Hollywood give me a chance, I'd like to make Superheroes and heroines appear in my original screenplay into a film.

spook · Forum Newbie Joined: Dec 18, 2001 Posts: 1

just a few thoughts (with a nod to billybob... and joseph campbell)...

hero myth has been a fixture in every culture since human beings formed communities. the hero myth always involves someone like us who experiences adversity, goes on a journey (either spiritual or physical), and faces a challenge which they may or may not overcome - depending on their frailities and objective of the myth.

superheroes are the modern world's concession to mythical gods and tacit recognition of (or unconscious response to) extraordinary circumstances that outstrip our ability to control or understand - such as the fears over nuclear war during the cold war or amazing technologies that are dififcult to comprehend. so superheroes are vehicles for our fears.

but i don't think the metaphor of the "hero" has ever meant to serve as surrogate. rather, heroes are supposed to provide examples - sometimes as warnings (as with oedipus)....

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

I don't think there is any doubt that superhero's have a place in modern society. The question is... WHICH superheros?

As sppok pointed out, our modern hero's are just re-envisioned versions of the Greek gods, and even THEY have fallen in and out of fashion with the changing times.

What make our hero's different? COPYRIGHT!
Our hero's aren't just myths and legends. They are PRODUCTS!

Spiffopolis · Forum Member Joined: Jun 04, 2002 Posts: 13

With all the horrible things we see on the news and read in magazines can there be any doubt that the world would love to have a "super" hero save us? Society I think is a bit worn down by the media and the notion that one person can not make a difference. Secretly we all hope that someone somewhere can. It's a sense of hope that keep our myths and legends alive. Aspirations for a greater good.

I do my best as a humble un-powered human being to be a positive force in the world. I live by setting a good example, being honest, hard working, and even brave. My nephew sees me as a Super Hero. I once ran across the street and pulled him out of the way of a car that didn't see him. Way back when in high school I was the kind of guy who would step in for the nerds and protect them from the bullies. I've even saved a woman being chased by three thugs. While we can't be "Super" we can be heros none the less every day.

While good parenting certainly gave me my moral sounding board Super Heros contributed with ideals to live up to. I'm in my 30's and I still think every day "Wouldn't it be cool if..." if Captain America were hunting down al-Qaida, or if Batman uncovered a plot to detonate a biological or nuclear device on American soil and stopped it.

So my answer is yes. We need "Super" Heros. We need someone with abilities above those of mortal men, able to bend steel with their bare hands, change the course of mighty rivers, faster than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Superheroes versus Realism...

I think one big problem in this debate can be found right in the title of the thread -- "superheroes vs realism." Superheroes were never supposed to be compatible with realism and by their very nature CAN'T be compatible with realism. Even the so-called "gritty, realistic" characters like Punisher are incompatible with the idea of realism.

As Ratteler and spook said, our superheroes are based on yesterday's heroes. This goes for what he said about Greek gods, but also about the Golden Age, Silver Age, etc. -- each generation of superheroes is inspired by the generations that preceed it, from Enkidu right on up to Spawn. These superheroes do fall in and out of favour at times, but their influence does not.
_________________
Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com

DTHUREGRIF · Site Admin Joined: Jun 05, 2001 Posts: 462

Maybe it has nothing to do with unreality vs reality, but good vs evil?

In classic comics, the heroes were clearly good and the villians clearly bad. Nowadays, the heroes are hard to tell from the villians and vice versa. You have bad guys with hearts and good guys who completely ignore the law and have faults as big as the villians. Most mythology is filled with gods whose godliness includes unspeakable acts of selfishness, but they are allowed, because they are gods.

So it's a case of black and white or grey. We're in a grey phase now. Maybe it's because our perceived enemies are not clear cut. We don't have the "communists" to point fingers at anymore. Our movie heroes are applauded for being rebels and breaking the law. And our real life heroes routinely get caught breaking the law. I think the classic heroes aren't of interest to most people now because there's a general perception that good=weak.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

kero · Forum Newbie Joined: May 20, 2004 Posts: 3

Hi, all:

I think that subject reflect the times and ethinicity etc.

Superheroes are not a imaginary characters.They reflect contemporary social conditions.

The traditional ninja heroes such as Sasuke Sarutobi, Saizou Kirigakure, Kamui are wellknown in the movies or novels of Japan , just as the tales of Robin Hood, Zorro or Batman, Spiderman are told in the Western world today.

But the realities of ninja...They practiced constant asceticism at a mountain shrine or temple dedicated to the Kannon. It was no wander that they were mostly hidden Catholic.

Mental and physical perseverance was required for the training of their secret ninjutsu. Expert ninja could fall into a kind of apparent death by will power, and so it was possible for him to spy on his opponents from the ceiling without food or drink for a long time.

P.S. Please show me how to upload my self-portrait.

finister · Forum Member Joined: Oct 21, 2002 Posts: 94

Batman is not out to save Gotham City. Batman is out to wield his own brand of justice on Gotham regardless of what the 'democracy' of Gotham wants.

At the same time, Bruce Wayne lives in a gigantic mansion alone and with a butler waiting at his every beck and call. He lives in a gigantic mansion while he knows there are children in the slums living on the streets.

Bruce Wayne goes to polite society charities/fund raisers where plenty of press is sure to be present to boost his persona and perhaps his ego.

Batman is not really going out to protect the common man. Batman is going out night after night to exact his own kind of justice.

Bruce Wayne/Batman has invented a fantasy he can live with in order for him to stay sane in an insane world. He is very human. He is very imperfect. Common man would be better without him.

Why?

Batman's justice is short-term justice. It is rockem' sockem' justice. He's usually defeated by the Joker by the very system Batman tries to bypass!

I'd say our modern myth is reflecting reality very well.

Superman on the otherhand is the utopian myth of man, like Rodenberry's 'Federation' where human nature is taken out of the equation of civilization.

If Bruce Wayne was truly interested in justice he would have taken up law and used his millions to educate the poor instead of putting his money into fundraising where administration takes a huge cut in the overhead. Do you think the administrators of United Way are begging for food?

Todays comic heroes are fallible humans who have great power but they use it unwisely.

That is the myth being told today.

Neo in the 'Matrix' is repeatedly being told to 'wake up' in the first movie. Basically the movie is implying that we're sleep walking through life, taking everything for granted and anyone or thing that realises this can take advantage of it - including a machine. Matrix is straight out of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky - it's almost word-for-word in some parts. The rest is Taoist philosophy which is ageless in a world of duality.

Anyways, comics aren't being made for kids much anymore. Comics are being made for adult males nowadays. Manga/Anime is replacing Harlequin.

Mankind will always need heroes and heroines just as they need villains and villainesses

JDKammerer · Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Superheroes versus Realism...

I agree that this world needs the duality of heroes/villains in our lives. A living ruler that we can measure ourselves against or judge ourselves by.

After all, without evil, how can we truly know how good, good really is?

Except to me, we seem to live in the era of Antiheroes.

Neo for example, his role of hero (like many today) weren't chosen, but forced upon them. The very embodiment of a protagonist who wants very little to do with playing hero and seems to go out of their way to avoid being on.

In some ways, I think that is the sort of qualities that we associate with the word HERO these days. In fact, even in my own storytelling, my heroes are almost reluctant and never really view themselves as a "hero" but just a guy trying to survive and tries his best to do the "right thing".

I think a lot of that has to do with society growing. No longer are things so clear cut or black and white. Deluding ourselves that there was a perfect balance between good/evil... wrong/right.

Our stories mainly had cowboys/Indians, cops/robbers, democracy/communism... a perfect balance of good and evil. However, in stories today, we see that there are savage cowboys, corrupt cops, and extremists in democracy... even going as far as to show redeemable qualities in those that we'd normally consider "Evil".

Riddick from the movie "Pitch Black" for example. A convicted killer, even admits his crimes of murder with pride and even enjoys dealing out pain and death... and yet, also seems to reluctantly display hero-like qualities in these movies so that the audience forget what his nature really is and falls in love with him. Helping to introduce to us that it is OK to be a merciless killer, just so long as you are killing other BAD guys.

Does a noble act make a person noble? Is a Hero a person that plays judge, jury and executioner, or is it the man who strings them up in webbing or drops them off at Arkham for our justice system to handle and eventually drop the ball and send ‘em back out into society?

~Jack