Captain America and the little runts.

palmers · Forum Member Joined: Jun 07, 2002 Posts: 379

Captain America's my favourite superhero. I'm not American, but he seems to stand for ideal values, whether America actually exemplifies them or not: the values we aspire to, rather than the ones we achieve. Last year I read the first ten issues of Captain America Comics from the early '40s, plus another wartime story reprinted elsewhere, and I got into trouble on another forum for pointing out that the character has changed, inevitably, since those days of racism and prejudice, and wondering what current values might need to be modified in the near future. It was a sophisticated question, and responses mostly either called me anti-American or argued with me over whether phrases like "little brown monkeys" and "little runt" were in fact abusive at all.

For the record, I will consider the claim that they aren't on the day I hear the exchange, "This is my little boy" "Oh, isn't he a darling little runt?"

I'm still wondering, though, especially when we have both the real Cap and the rather-more-assertive Ultimate Cap running around: what does Captain America stand for today? And what does he stand for today which might need to be reconsidered tomorrow?

IMP.
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OrcaDesignStudios

I'll be honest: I don't like Captain America and I never have. The only Cap story I've ever read and thought was half-decent was about fifteen years ago when there was that whole "can I be Captain America without the drugs?" dilemma. My dislike of the character probably stems from the fact that, as a Canadian, I am bombarded every day with Americana to the point that I try to avoid it whenever possible. Even reading Superman makes me cringe at times. I'm sure some will call me anti-American, but it's really annoying to be told by even your entertainment --overtly or implicitly -- that the USA is the only "good" country in the world.
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GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 611

I have never really been a big Captain America fan. I sort of put him along side of Superman and Cyclops. They have their uses but they are generally too goody goody and I don't like them as much. I am much more of a Batman fan. I also like Rutger Hauer since he normally plays in shades of "gray." He can be an evil guy but he has a bit of gray in him, or he can be the hero but he has that same gray. It makes him more human. Superman and Captain America are pretty much without gray.
I do like some of the stuff that is being done with Cap in the Ultimates though. The whole man out of time thing works. He has a series that is now in Marvel Knights and I picked up a few issues (mostly for the Chris Baccalo art) but I liked them pretty well. However, it did get a bit too much involved in the whole political thing, even though he wasn't totally comfortable with it, it was there. It was interesting to see a more questioning Captain America though.
The times have changed though and so has the ideology and allowed words. I pretty much write them off as being an expression from that time. They might not have even been meant as a "bad" thing back then. It was just the way that the colloquial language was expressed. A lot of older people still are stuck with those phrases that would be slammed as un-PC but they are simply words from a bygone era a lot of times, meant with no ill will. Now, if they were said today by someone that didn't qualify as older then it would be rude, etc. It is just dated and should be treated as such. At least to me.

palmers · Forum Member Joined: Jun 07, 2002 Posts: 379

I'm British and don't have a problem with Cap: the ideals are for all of us, and separate from the reality.

I was interested reading the first years of Superman recently that the patriotism isn't evident until well into WWII, and I've started to wonder whether that's the glorious isolation thing: that America didn't really need the fervent patriotism we now take for granted until it started paying attention to the rest of the world again.

It does piss me off enormously that our kids in Britain can't spell in English anymore, only in American. There is no letter zee in English.

ODS, how do you feel about the explicitly Canadian superheroes, like Alpha Flight and Captain Canuck?

IMP.
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OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject:

palmers · Forum Member Joined: Jun 07, 2002 Posts: 379

I don't think I've seen Johnny Canuck. Northguard is supposed to have been okay, but I've never seen an issue.

John Byrne's founding run on Alpha Flight, the first couple of years, from about 1983, tends to focus on team members one or two at a time: it was a loose team. It makes extensive use of Canadian geography, it's well-written, and the artwork is outstanding. One of my favourite comics, and one of the things I liked was that it was different: not New York or San Francisco.

Are Canadians patriotic? And are French-Canadians and Scots-Canadians and whatever else you've got there all different in that respect? Does the question even make sense?

IMP.
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GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 611

I keep wanting to spell in English rather than American. LOL Even after years of working in a newspaper I was so wanting to write it grey instead of gray. I think it comes from the fact that I read mostly British authors growing up.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 543 Location: NYC

I think the Ultimate take on Cap is the most interesting. I imagine his view of the world to be simular to the dad on "That 70's Show."

America has become the "Nation of Bable". Instead of a unified culture we have fractured into so many subcultures that they can no longer hold together a cohesive nation. That's how we ended up with the massive corruption we have running the country now. In the vacume of true leadership those who can buy influence simple filled the void to their benefit.

I don't see how Cap could reflect that, or why he should. He's a snapshot of a America when the government served the people, and he is the country's greatest servant from that time. He should be racist but not bigoted, because that's the era he came from.

palmers · Forum Member Joined: Jun 07, 2002 Posts: 379

Depends on whether he's man or symbol. If he's really a man from the '40s he should reflect '40s attitudes, on gender and disability as well as race. If, however, he stands for everything America ought to be...

I know. How, in story terms, in character terms, do you maintain a character who represents a set of ideals? You can't have a crisis of conscience every few years, but you can keep the character in line with your developing ideals. You'd still need to keep some distance, though, or you'll have Captain America charging off in support of a war which turns out just months later to be less popular than you thought...

The Guantanamo Bay story made me wonder. How close to real politics can you get with an icon?

Reading the Superman dailies from 1939-41 was interesting, because he went off and sorted out WWII. I don't know how Jerry Siegel handled the war when it turned out to be going on for year after year after year.

IMP.
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Aremis

I cant speak for all Canadians, but i can say, from my life here in the Nation's Capital, most are truly patriotic. We fight our government not because we want more for less, but because we want whats best for our country.
We will pay more taxes if thats whats needed to keep our hospitals and schools in the top 10% of the World.
We respectand love our contry, and many of us would kill, and die, to protect its values.

Unfortunatly, and this is not an insult to our neighbours to the south, but too often, our culture gets lost by having such a slot relation to the States.
Same goes for how our culture has been impacted by immigration. But I wont get into that now.

But yes, Canadians are very patriotic, proud of our heritage.
And just for the record, there are no African-Canadian's, Scots-Candians, Irish Canadians. Yes, we do have French-Canadians, but again, thats a Pandora's box best discussed OFF the web =).
We are all simply Canadian's.
And by and by, Aye, I will defend her to the last.
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palmers · Forum Member Joined: Jun 07, 2002 Posts: 379

Your mention of the tax question reminded me. It seems as though everyone in the world complains about paying taxes, but when I went to Sweden a few years ago, our hostess (who wasn't in politics, she worked for a 'fridge manufacturer) was proud that she paid higher taxes for a better welfare state.

IMP.
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GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 611

I think it is partly an image thing. In America I have the impression that my money goes to 900 dollar military toilet seats, 700 dollar screwdrivers, etc. I don't like giving my money to stuff that is wasted on or that I don't agree with and when there is sooooo much of that it makes it harder to support.