which is better Marvel or DC

BillyBob · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:24 am Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

You raise some interesting points about the nature of comics and fantasy in general. Is the point of a comic book to be pure escapism? Or should it be ultra-realistic? I think, ideally, that fiction needs to illustrate some part of the human condition in order to be effective. In other words, "good" fiction should show insight into what makes human beings, well, human. In my mind, the setting and circumstances are almost irrelevant because a good, engaging story that says something can take place in a New York City alley or on a spaceship.

On the other hand, comics seem to fall into a "follow the leader" pattern. For a while, the angst of the X-Men was popular, which led nearly every comic to mirror the same style. Similarly, the deeply introspective, tortured vigilante-style of comic made Batman, Spawn, and Punisher popular, so a lot of comics began doing the same thing. Additionally, you can only do so many variations on a theme: bad guy does something bad, hero fights against overwhelming odds, he/she sometimes wins, sometimes loses, sometimes people get killed. (Of course, the same can be said about ALL fiction; it's the richness of the writing that makes something worthwhile.)

So, getting back to the original idea, have comics and fantasy/sci fi become obsolete? Have we lost our collective "willing suspension of disbelief"? Or has the crushing, depressing reality of the world made escape even MORE important?

BillyBob

GhostofMacbeth · Forum Member Joined: Sep 21, 2001 Posts: 619

Comics and Pulp stuff were primarily started during the depression and carried over into the World War II era ... A lot of it was meant to be escapist fare and that is why I still think it can serve that function well in today's society.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 561 Location: NYC

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 561 Location: NYC

Nim_Prodaction · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:24 am Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

Well i agree in some points with you RATTLER,but if we see all this in you prespective....what would happen to the all Superhero that we know from our childhood?

i mean,it is so sad to see Cap.,the way he is now,or Punisher that started to be a crazy vigilante that now is going after BIN LADEN?

I love Batman because he is a hero that does not have any super ability,and become a little more "real" than any other mask man.

With all these i just mean that we should give a little fantasy to every work (comic,tv,movie...) so we dont become more pessimist than what we ALL are.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

It's funny, Ratteler, but it seems like all the things you point out as being wrong with comics are the exact reasons I started buying them again three or four years ago (after a break of about seven years).

See, from my perspective, if I want to read about shady dealings, self-centred societies who don't care about anyone but themselves, and a world painted in shades of grey, I'll read a newspaper. I live in that crappy world -- I don't want to spend my leisure time there, too :lol:

I love the idea of superheroes and to me, the key part of that term is "heroes" -- people who give their all for the good of others, who put themselves in the line of fire in an effort to prevent a Hobbesian state of war. I'm not a big fan of characters like the Punisher, who, really, is only considered a hero because the people he murders are criminals. Actually, that's one of the reasons I dropped World's Finest from my monthly stash -- in issue 5, Jeph Loeb had Superman contemplating killing Lex Luthor Batman not only advocating the murder, but offering to help conceal the crime. I have a lot of respect for Loeb and generally like his work, but... WTF?!? Of all the characters in mainstream comics that I could see contemplating something like that, Bats and Supes would be the LAST on my list. I could even see Wonder Woman doing it before those two.

Anyway, I digress

Bottom line for me is that superheroes aren't about telling stories about the world as it is, or portraying humanity as it is. Superheroes are about portraying the world as it should be, where people still give a shit about more than themselves and where Thomas Hobbes is wrong about the nature of man. And, when done properly, superheores are about social commentary.
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AslanC · Forum Newbie Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 3

You know I think that there is no such thing as "better" when it comes to any art form. It is all a matter of taste. My roommate is a big DC fan, while I stray more towards Marvel (though at the prices these days I don't buy much but the occasional Astro City).

Super-heroes will always be modern myth to me. I don't want them to reflect the real world (which is why the Ultimate line never caught for me).

Like ODS said, if I want real world I've got plenty of it. I want to escape. I want to lose myself in a world where we don't have to question the sexual disposition of a man who hangs out with a young boy. Where women fight with equality but dress like strippers. Where citizens don't sure for property damage, cause the guy they'd be suing just saved their lives.

Sure a bit of the real world is needed in comics to keep it grounded and recognizable, but it has to be more than the world we live in. Nobler, filled with hope. Otherwise what's the point? Everyone might as well just watch the latest episode of Law & Order: CSI and be done with it.

Kathyrne · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

I am glad that soembody mentioned Astro City. Everyone focuses on the big two and they often forget about the independants, who more often put out a better quality book. And that, really, is the bottome line. Is the story good? Are the characters? What about the art?

I will admit that my view is a bit skewed. After all, I love Astro City because it's heroes live in a world taht is simpler than the modern one. They harken back to the old days of the Fantastic Four and Batman. Back before there was the need / want to "realize" everything. The statement that any form of entertainment (regardless of type) needs to be escapist is, in my opinion, a truism. If you want real, turn on the evening news.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 561 Location: NYC

Maybe it's just my perspective. Being a New Yorker and living through 9-11. (Just being a New Yorker is enough to jade anyone.) :wink:

On one hand I'm ussually dead set against "changing" our classic hero's. Superman should never loose the Red and Blue's IMHO. He should never been a Hawain Filapino, or Nicholas Cage.

Can you imagine the Lone Ranger set in modern times instead of the Wild West? Or the godawful WB Tarzan.

Some things just stop working at some point, and maybe Supes has reached that limit. Maybe we need to establish that he doesn't live in our world anymore. But even there we're going to loose something. We're going to loose an effective way to critisize and anylize the REAL world.

I really don't have an answer, and I don't think there is a right or wrong one.

JDKammerer · Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

If you ask my opinion, Marvel/DC are a dead issue and have been at least since the mid-90's.

I am not talking characters, plots and storylines here, I am talking about the actual corporate level and marketing aspect of both companies.

Neither are what they were 20 years ago... hell, even 10 years ago... having been asked this question 25 years ago, I'd have said Marvel, asked that question of me in mid-80's to mid-90's, I'd have told you the Independent Press... ask me now... the industry itself is dead.

Those that know me, know that I started working in the Industry back in '92. Accepting a role with one of the corporate giants as a freelance writer (under Michael Lee Scott) before having my eyes fully opened to the reality of that business and striking off on my own as an Indie (around the time of McFarlane leaving Marvel).

Long story short, the value of the artist and the writer were never factored into the equation of what made a good book by the "Big Two" and the birth of the Indie Press War was born... and with it, the collapse of the market structure.

The flood of Independents, in their peak moment, hurt both Marvel and DC's sales, however, it also hurt the many Mom & Pop shops who ended up getting trapped holding stock that never moved or sold... less stores meant less distributors and we saw the collapse of Heroes World, Friendly Franks and other distributors that closed or got bought out by Diamond Distribution...

Diamond, in a bid for control of the Comic Market, placed huge fines (in part thanks to Todd McFarlane's Spawn title) on late product, insane product restrictions in order to cater to Marvel/DC (also Dark Horse Comics and, soon after Image), demands unable to be met by many Independents which further damaged the market.

And let's not forget the Bullshit Years, folks... the multi or shinny foil cover years (just before Wolverine lost his Claws and value as an X-Man) where you could get six copies of the same comic with differnt covers to maximize collectablity which sunk like a lead balloon...

...or how about the "Bad Girl" Years that followed that, where the story really no longer mattered... just some bimbo in a skimpy outfit sporting breasts bigger than her skull...

...or soon after, the advent of the Internet and Playstation.

I barely got out of the Industry alive, I still have a lot of friends and associates who once had thriving books and huge booths, now confined to artist alley tables at your local cons, just barely breaking even if they are lucky...

The age old Marvel versus DC arguement died along with the Comic Industry. Marvel and DC, in order to reach an audience these days HAS to do so through the Movie and Video Game Industry (I saw that trend back in '98 and as such got into 3D myself)... the Indies have pretty much reclaimed some of their market through the Internet (such as Calibur, Arrow Comics and a slew of others) in an effort to break away from the Monopoly that Diamond holds on the Comic Industry...

...as for myself...

heh... I saw a trend, just before I got into 3D, as an Indie Press and attempted to break into it while it was still fresh and new... the Anime Market... truthfully, I was before my time and before the market was established and an industry standard so never really got off the ground and thus came over to the 3D Market.

Now, I am going back into the Comic/Anime Industry, while also employing my knowledge of 3D. I will be reaching my audience through the Internet and will be opening my website soon, as a result.

Print is dead, boys and girls, as is Marvel and DC and as such, this age old arguement, died as well. We live in an electronic age now and that is where the Market and customer has gone...

~Jack

BillyBob · Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 4:19 am Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

Jack, I don't know what to do first, address your comments or talk about that picture of yours. Weren't you one of the Village People? :lol:

Your statements about the death of print are well-taken, but I have to wonder: Is the problem the media or the message? Newspapers are still popular, books still sell, despite their "old school" delivery format, but I think they are still enjoyed because of what they communicate, not how. Yes, you can get your news online, but there's something more "concrete" about holding a newspaper. Yes, you can get books on tape/CD/DVD, but there's something about immersing yourself in the words and holding the book that makes the experience more rewarding than looking at it online (for example). Why else would electronic paper even be considered? Because there's something about holding the paper that makes the experience of reading "real".

So why are comics failing? To be sure, interactive media like video games put a serious hurting on a host of popular culture forms (including comics and regular TV programming). Additionally, comics have been failing because of over-saturation and prices so steep that you have to sell your first-born to buy them consistently. (In my case, I started collecting comics when I was 10, but stopped last year because I had to make a choice: use money on comics or use the money on a gym membership. I wanted to get in shape and couldn't rationalize spending the same amount of money on comics of uncertain quality, although I must admit that I miss the Justice Society.)

Comics, like the wrestling industry (now how's THAT for a tangent!) and other parts of popular culture, experience tremendous swings in popularity. As Jack said, diversification is about the only way that you can survive in that type of environment. When comics become "cool" again in the public's eye, then casual readers will return to that media form. In the meantime, comics should continue to provide (when done well) what other media can't: beautifully-drawn, escapist literature with intelligent plots and dialog.

BillyBob

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 561 Location: NYC

I think Jack and Billy Bob both make excelent points.

The Indy/Diamond fiasco did do a lot to kill the industry.

Even if my interest IS sparked in particular comic book, these days I wait for the trade paperback at $15 - $25 as opposed to trying to read every issue.

Also the age of the Artist/Writer hasn't helped. Most (But not all) Artist/Writers really don't really care about the story and put all the emphasis on the art. That how we got 22 page books that were basically 14 posters stapled together with no real plot.

I also personally HATE computerized coloring with endless gradient weirdness. Like some one tried to make a book with nothing but Ziptone!

If your book wouldn't look readable published in Black and White, in my opinion it shouldn't be printed.

We all know enough Photoshop and releated skills to generate our own book these days. The cost of printing has never been cheaper in human history. So why are comic books in the $4 to $7 range?

Compare the value of a 22 page comic with 1/12 of story in it (if your lucky), to that of a even a small paperback with a complete story.

I see the same thing happening to the TV industry now. The networks refuse to pay for content. So we end up with endless cheap "reality" shows and the veiwers are just leaving.

The only things left I even bother to watch are Alias, Smallville, Enterprise, and Stargate. Even with them I really don't care about missing an episode because like the Trade Paperback, I'll just get the DVD Box set when it's available.

I expect in a few years well see the first "series" come out as a box set before it ever sees the small, or big screen. THe Television equiveleent of a Graphic Novel.

That's when we'll start to see some actual creativity again.

FlowensSoulX · Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

yeah reality shows really piss me off,and when the technology keeps on evolving books and comic books migth end up being obsolite.
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JDKammerer · Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: which is better Marvel or DC

Heh… no not one of the Village People, just a redneck hick in leather. :lol:

Like you, BB, I started collecting comics when I was around 9 or 10 (1976-1977) and I stopped collecting sometime around ’96 or ’97. At some points in that time I was purchasing around $300 a week in comics… all just sitting in several hundred (and I do mean several HUNDRED) boxes all bagged and back-boarded and collecting dust.

But… while it is true that newspapers and books still sell, let’s look at the age of the audience that those forms of media attract. Many who purchase those products are adults ages 20 & up… you aren’t likely to come downstairs in the morning and find your 10 year old sitting at the breakfast table with a newspaper opened, unless it is the Sunday Morning Comics. No, instead, they are sitting at the table shoveling “Sugar Bombs” into their mouths with one hand while playing with their Nintendo GameBoy in the other.

The question isn’t so much the Medium or the Message, although I will address that in a moment, but true question is: What is the target audience and the consumer of comic books these days and who are they attempting to reach with those books?

I am going to be 40 in a couple years and, to be honest here I stopped collecting comics because of three reasons…

1.) Financial – When I started collecting comics they were $0.30 a comic, when I stopped collecting the comics had reached $2.95 a comic. As you pointed out, there comes a time when an adult must choose the staples of life over a comic book. Also, spending fifty bucks worth of comics to be entertained for a couple of hours versus spending the same fifty bucks on a video game and being entertained for a couple of days played a huge role in it as well.
2.) Industrial – Once I got into the Comic Industry, I had pretty much reduced my spending on comic books because I didn’t want to be accused of “copying plots”. Also, while being in the Industry, the stress and disgruntlement occurring within it helped to reduce the joy I’d found in comics and collecting.
3.) Personal – As I got older, I found it increasingly difficult to associate with the characters that I had grew up with and loved. While I had aged 20 years, the characters I grew up with were still the same age that I had first found them in. While I was stressing about bills, a failing marriage and just simple survival in a grownup world, my connectivity and association with characters decreased.

Mainstream Comics have always centered around the 10-18 year old audience, that is where the market was for them. And while times and trends have changed, and their main readers had grown up, the comic industry failed to change and grow up with them.

Since the advent of the Comic Code Authority, the comic books created by Marvel and DC had to skirt the issues of everyday life to keep parents happy and as such never really stepped outside of the boundaries they instituted for their companies to connect and associate with their audience as they grew and matured. They left that arena to the Independent Press to do, which is why the Independent Press became so popular.

However, when the Independent Press began to seriously cut into their profits, Marvel and DC began to change (a bit late) some of their formats and tried to “mimic the gimmick” (multi-covers, bad girls, character crossovers), while at the same time instructing Diamond Distribution to help them stamp out the competition.

Today, 10-18 year olds don’t want to sit and read a comic book, not when they have videogames and toys that entertain them while using as little imagination as possible. We no longer live in a world where we NEED heroes to protect us, not when we can pick up an XBOX controller and BE that hero.

Also kids are more mature these days and face all sorts of adult situations that we never had to face as children ourselves. Many of them don’t identify with the heroes of old, the avengers and JLA aren’t going to matter to them and they can only identify with Peter Parker from the movie, not the one in the comic book is who married to Mary Jane. Why read about Frank Castle (the Punisher) when they can be SNAKE (from Metal Gear Solid) and take out the “bad guys” themselves in a visual and interactive animated format?

Also, let’s think about the format of today’s major product… Anime.

The only Anime that was around, when I was a kid, was Kimba the White Lion, Speed Racer and Star Blazers (Space Battleship Yamato). However, these days Anime is everywhere you look, you have it on Saturday Morning Cartoons, the Toon Channel, Adult Swim, ADV Films: Anime Cable Network… you even have Disney, Marvel and DC trying to cash in on the art format…

However, Anime isn’t just about the art style.
Anime transcends beyond just art and includes mature and expansive storylines that attract both the adults and kids these days, in fact it was that same element that attracted the audiences to the Independent Press Publishers way back in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s.

The Comic Book Industry has already had their “Golden Age” and as such they are now dying off. Both Marvel and DC Comics are living on borrowed time and they know it. They’ve grown fat and lazy off of the hard work of many talented artists and writers till they burned them out (not unlike Disney) and know that if they don’t get into a new field of media, the money flow into their companies will dry up quicker than a whore on a Saturday night.

The movies that they are pumping out (two or three a year) isn’t done to breath life back into the comic book industry and the world of print. It is done to reach the kids of today and introduce the characters of “soon to come” video games.

I firmly believe that very soon, there will come a time when comic books, as we know them, will be the thing of the past and that most printed comics will change over to TPB (trade paper back like Ratteler mentioned), only because printing and distribution of that product is far cheaper than going through Diamond Distribution and consumers feel that they’ve gotten more for their hard earned money.

~Jack

AslanC · Forum Newbie Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 3

Wow.

Negative much?

Sorry but I find this thread, which seemed to start as a harmelss "which is better" thread has degenerated into a negative outlook on humanity.

That's why I need superheroes (and will need them until I am an old man). I need hope.

Someone please try and take a positive turn here. This is getting bleak :cry: