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Joined: May 30, 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
OrcaDesignStudios wrote:
The subscription idea sounds good, but would it be fore individual titles, or for the whole "imprint" as it were? If for the whole imprint, then how do we split the profits? Say we have an imprint-wide monthly subscription of $10 and of all the people who subscribe, 70% download all issues of my books, but because Aremis smells like teen spirit, only 15% of members download his. Since they aren't paying individually, do Aremis and I get a set percentage of the monthly subscription income, or do we get more or less money based on downloads? And in that case, another problem arises -- if all members download all the books, giving all creators a full share of profits, will it be worthwhile, financially? Actually, now that I think of it, doesn't Renderotica have a pay section now? Can anyone involved in that shed some light on how it works?
I suspect it would be best for everyone if proceeds were split on a book-by-book basis. The way it sounds right now (and Mods feel free to correct me here), Animotions would be operating as a distributor, not a publisher. They're offering to hook up writers with artists to drive the initiative, but creators are responsible for creating their own content -- in effect self-publishing. Animotions will supply the marketplace and promotion, for which they'll take a cut of the profits (presumably in the way that DAZ, R'osity and other sites take a cut of marketplace items sold through their online stores). The real-world analog of this would be that they're cutting the comic store out of the loop.
Scott McCloud and Warren Ellis write frequently about pay-per-download webcomics -- it would be worth researching their comments, and observing how it's already done in other venues, to set up a practical, usable policy.
There is always going to be piracy and leakage of material -- you can install certain safeguards (I think a password-protected download is all that's required; punching in a code every time you want to open the document seems like more trouble than its worth) but ultimately the honour system is the only one that's going to prevail. And frankly, most people would just as likely pay one or two bucks as go to the trouble of pirating something. The so-called "micropayment" scheme seems to be the way of the web-based comic.
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
Well, let me see if I can answer some of the questions.
OrcaDesignStudios wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it, doesn't Renderotica have a pay section now? Can anyone involved in that shed some light on how it works?
Let me try. At Renderotica we have a pay section. This is where the best of the best artists post their images. When a person buys a pay subscription, half the money goes to the site to pay for costs, like bandwith. The other half is divided amongst the "Premier" artists monthly on the number of unique hits to their images.
sunandshadow wrote:
Is there a thread about this subject over at renderotica, and if so, can someone link to it? I'm just thinking that as a writer of romance/erotica that's usually rated NC-17 I might be more likely to find an interested artist over there.
Yes there is a thread over there. No, you can not link to it. The best way is to sign up there, it is free. I started a thread there also. I have been listing at both sites all those that are interested in this project.
relik,
Let us know when you have some done. If they are one-off, you can let us know. If they are a series, I would suggest that you have about four(4) issues ready before you start selling them. This will give you the opportunity to work on upcomming issues.
Chasart,
I'm already on the roller coaster ride, and hanging on for dear life. If you want to help with single-occasion editing / suggestions, for an occasional work which is well into progress, that can be arranged.
Joseph_OBrien wrote:
The way it sounds right now (and Mods feel free to correct me here), Animotions would be operating as a distributor, not a publisher. They're offering to hook up writers with artists to drive the initiative, but creators are responsible for creating their own content -- in effect self-publishing. Animotions will supply the marketplace and promotion, for which they'll take a cut of the profits (presumably in the way that DAZ, R'osity and other sites take a cut of marketplace items sold through their online stores). The real-world analog of this would be that they're cutting the comic store out of the loop.
Yes, that's about the gist of it. It is up to the artists to do the creating. All we want to provide is a place to sell your works. _________________ I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-
This sounds great to me. I'm interested in the 'adult' content comics, either writing and rendering or rendering for a writer.
Could be; a few pictures for a long piece of fiction; or a heavy narrative piece shown entirely with splash pages; or a traditional 'comic book' which I think many in this thread are envisioning.
I think for wannabes like myself this is a great opportunity to have 'digital' comic work in ones portfolio (writers and artists) if Marvel/DC and other biggies do begin 'digital' publishing.
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
Here is some new information. At the beginning of this thread, the first post, I have put the link to the Renderotica store. Anyone that has something ready can go there. All the information that you need will be provided there when you go to upload.
Remember that the Animotions store has a rating restriction of G to PG-13. If your work is in this range, you can upload to BOTH stores. This will increase your market area.
Thanks and good luck.
Alex _________________ I am a romantic, a seeker of beauty.
Even from souls corners most despairing,
Beauty none the less.
-Sunheart-
Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 787 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
The link provided doesn't say anything specifically about comics, as far as I can see, so what are the requirements in terms of page sizes, file sizes, page count, etc.?
Also, since so many people are dependent on free stuff items for their work and so many free stuff items have restrictions on commercial use, how is that going to be checked and dealt with? _________________ Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
I really don't think it's the resposibility of the adminstration to check into that.
Unless your the RIAA and can buy court rulings, it's the responsibility of respective copyright holders to protect their copyright.
If there was an allegation of abuse, it would be in sites best interest o pull the questionable book until there was some resolution.
In such a case, the complaintant would have to funish the object in question, and the artist would need to provide the scene with the object in question.
The artist should be solely responsible for any finacial damages sought by the copyright holder since it is taken in good faith that any product the artist submits is either his/her own work, or work that he has procured the approprite permisions to use.
Either way, this is going to be terribly hard to prove in most cases, and will aplicable to comics rendered in 3D. I'm hoping we'll see many 2D comics as well.
OrcaDesignStudios wrote:
"The link provided doesn't say anything specifically about comics, as far as I can see, so what are the requirements in terms of page sizes, file sizes, page count, etc.?"
I'm guessing that this is as open to the creators' decision as anything else. A creator or team can aim for a comic-size 6 1/2 x 10 1/4 format (or precursor 11x17), or screen size formats (i.e. 800x600 px to suit most users' screen resolutions), or anything else that might suit the story, as long as it can be done in a transportable format of PDF. Page count might be slightly more specific, but that's still something that's going to be determined by the story. There's a lot more freedom with online delivery (although I'm sure that thought should be given to the format by anyone who'd ever like the story to later go to print).
And:
"Also, since so many people are dependent on free stuff items for their work and so many free stuff items have restrictions on commercial use, how is that going to be checked and dealt with?"
A long time ago, in response to the opening of Premier at Renderotica, I made a brief start on an FAQ of freestuff usage, including copyright rules of thumb and a fledgling list of which creators tend to allow commercial renders vs. which creators totally restrict them. It quickly turned into a mega project that I didn't have the time to develop (doing so would have required contacting every creator to ask to verify if the info was correct), but if members of the community would like to build upon it, I can repost it here.
Ratteler wrote:
"I really don't think it's the resposibility of the adminstration to check into that."
No, but given the vastness of the community and what's available, it's still a good idea to educate folks about copyrights and point them in the right direction when possible (which was also expressed as the purpose of said FAQ, rather than to provide anything definitive).
Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 787 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:11 am Post subject:
Chasart wrote:
No, but given the vastness of the community and what's available, it's still a good idea to educate folks about copyrights and point them in the right direction when possible (which was also expressed as the purpose of said FAQ, rather than to provide anything definitive).
Yeah, that was pretty much what I was getting at. I expect about half the people who use free stuff don't even read or don't really coprehend commercial restrictions. And by "comprehend," I mean they read them, but the exact meaning doesn't sink in.
Aside from my stuff that's based on copyrighted material, like Darkseid or Two-Face, my free stuff read-me's generally say something along the lines of "if you want to use this for a commercial render, send me an email and we can talk." Others are adamant that there is now way, no how you can use their free stuff commercially. I just think it would be better to get this kind of thing out in the open than to have, suddenly, a half-dozen comics pulled from the store and have AniMotions get the kind of reputation the Renderosity marketplace is getting as a haven for copyright abusers. _________________ Jim Harnock - ODS
www.OrcaDesignStudios.com
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
Well, in the past I've been know to create things from scratch when I though some one's restrictions on use were assinine.
I also tend to delete anything that doesn't allow for commercial use. If it's really cool, I make my own version and then delete it. Then release my own free version without restriction.
Again... I think we should split up this topic into creative and administrative.
It seems the focus at the moment is on getting people who are already active members here to make books.
That's a little bit like preaching to the chior. This concept relies on pulling in new blood. Both new artists and eventually new readers.
We also need to set the Page size, resolution, and count ASAP. No matter what direction this goes in the future, any one interested in creating content is pretty much paralyzed creatively until we have that basic specification in stone.
You really can't even begin writing until you know what the final format will be.
We can certainly start a thread on copyright education (you want to start it?). I do realize there is a lot of confusion about copyright law in the Poser community.
Yes, we will check the comics, but no, we are not going to be responsible for copyrights. The way the law works, it is between the copyright holder and the person who violates it. If we see a blatent offense, we'll refuse the item. If we get a complaint, we'll pull the item for investigation.
As for formats, that's kind of up to the creators as well. If you want to have a standardized template, someone would have to work one up. But I don't really think that's necessary.
There's one other thing I'd like to bring up. I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into things, but $1-$2 price points are a problem.
When you are talking credit card transactions, the transaction fee (30¢) and the discount 3-5% really make it prohibitive to sell something at that price. (DAZ can do it because they've got your membership fee) If we did the traditional 50/50 split, that would only leave us with 15¢ per comic.
So, we'd either have to talk doing the split AFTER cc costs are taken out or come up with a different pricing scheme. Any ideas?
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Online Comic Venue
Hmmmm.... that is a problem.
Any higher and you start to approach the price of real printed comic of about $4 - $6.
This would make it even MORE imperitive to nail down the format. The higher the price gets, the more the user will start thinking of the formats limitation rather than anything cool about it.
If it's not a true print resolution, or at least a 22 Page book that equates to the proper layout of a book, your going to get nothing but critisism. Comic Book readers are loyal to a fault, but they are also picky as hell.
I don't know if the actual reader will even be willing to pay that much for an unkown character/story line. Never mind something they can't hold in their hand.
Maybe if we implement the monthly price inceases scheme I've mentioned before, we could offer a sliding scale on the Artist/Store split. But in this case the artist would actually make less than 50% per book to start off with, and it would be at the key point of new release when the sales interst would be at it's peak.
Are you saying that on a $2 sale, only $0.30 would be left to split? Or that if you paid the artist a $1, $.85 of the sites cut would go to transaction fees?
I'm pretty sure most artist would be willing to split 50% of the PROFITS after credit card fees are paid.
So a $2 comic would leave $1.15. And both the site and the artist would get $0.57,
While not a great take, that is actually not all that bad compared to what they would expect if they self published. A real book would net them MAYBE $1 and issue, $1.50 tops if they were a known artist that worked out some deal with Diamond Distributors.
It may sound unfair, but remember the competition is to PAY $8000 upfront and probably loose money in the deal, or to publish via your own web space and loose the advantage of having several types of book in a single location where a customer may come looking, decide to try out your book.
Maybe the Platinum Club is a good model. Most of the PC Club items are also available for sale to non-members at an inflated price.
Another possibility is ask for a minumum order. You can't get just one book at a time, but have pick 3 or 4 books to make a minmum purchase. Of course that means you must have at least 3 to 4 titles avialble. Probably more like 12.
Sad to say this, but your artist will take a lot more screwing over than your reader will. So if something has to give... it should probably be the artist.
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If you want to help with single-occasion editing / suggestions, for an occasional work which is well into progress, that can be arranged.
