Women in comics - Round Table

Hasdrubal · Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:25 am Post subject:

I think some of you younger guys don't know 70's comics as well as you think. Stories illustrating suggestive female bondage weren't printed as often as some of the present comics web pages would have you believe. There are web masters who make an extra effort to display the juicey stuff that was usually only printed when a given comic's sales were sinking.

Through most of the 70's, Sue Storm was not as weak a character as many people now let on. As early as 1971, in Fantastic Four # 115-116, she assumed temporary leadership of the group with the purpose of forming an alliance with Dr. Doom in Reed's absence. There were also some other stories that she assumed leadership when Reed was stranded in the Negative Zone. Timid indeed.

If there is any doubt of Sue's strength in those days, check out the 3 issue story starting in F.F. 147. She actually served Reed with a divorce notice.

The divorce story is a great example of a 70's vintage female character getting the best of everyone in the story. Medusa cooked up a successful scheme to reunite the couple by having her friend the Sub-Mariner stage a phony abduction for Sue. She knew it would make Reed insanely jealous. Medusa was always more cunning than her male counter-parts, including her early appearances with the villainous Frightful Four. Her living hair powers were somewhat lacking as super-powers go. Stan Lee had to make Medusa a smart character, who was capable of choosing or changing her own side.

The only thing that detracts from the divorce story as a strong super-heroine plot is the silly story about Thundra's future in the F.F. issues that immediately followed. The Thundra story is extremely silly, but it's another example of Medusa outwitting both the male villains and heroes.

If you want to say there was a point when Marvel's editorial attitudes toward women characters shifted, the "Dark Phoenix Saga" in the late 70's X-Men series was it. The original "Dark Phoenix Saga" may be the best comics story ever written. The new Marvel books will probably never measure up that level of quality. The current Marvel editors have reused and re-hashed the old stories too many times.

As for the changes in villains since the 70's, M.O.D.O.K. and the Kree Supremor were interested in capturing Ms. Marvel for more reasons than just ruling the universe. Ms. Marvel's series was a little more trashy, than F.F. or Avengers, but her sales weren't as good. I don't think anything that happened in a failed 23 issue series could be interpreted as a general trend.

blubeetle3 · Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

And let us not forget that a writer can write the character anyway he wants, but, eventually, when it gets into the hands of the artist, that artist is going to put his own spin on the character.

Power Girl is a very smart, very opinionated woman who most artists draw as having a stripper's physique.

But, the best case scenario I can give of an artist putting his spin on characters occurred when Adam Hughes took over the pencils from Kevin Maguire on "Justice League International". Maguire drew the two lead female characters at the time, Fire and Ice, as having about the same physical attributes. When Hughes started pencilling them, their personalities started to be reflected in their appearance. The more aggressive, vain, and flirtatious Fire went from a C-cup to a D-cup. The more shy, more demure Ice went from a C-cup to a B-cup.

runamuck · Forum Newbie Joined: Aug 12, 2004 Posts: 5

On the subject of women in comics, there is a website that suggests that the female characters seem to get beaten up, raped, mudered, etc. way more thatn their male counterparts.
see http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/index.html for more details.

*edited for spelling*

BillyBob · Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

Runamuck, thanks for the URL. I knew that there was a forum somewhere entitled "Women in Refrigerators," but didn't look around. (So sue me, I'm lazy.)

I think this highlights one of the points I raised about how women are used in comics -- to motivate the hero to exact vengeance.

WARNING, TANGENT ALERT: In my Real World job, I create terrorism preparedness training for the CDC, and one of our topics is the psychology of terrorism. Anyway, the speaker for that topic said that a primary reason that terror is so effective is that it hurts those that are seen as "helpless." For those in power (and terrorists feel that men run things, rightly or wrongly), children and women are "helpless." A comic would get blasted back to the stone age (charges would be brought against the author and lawsuits against the publisher, etc.) for showing harm done to kids. Thus, women can be a "safe" target for terror. END TANGENT

dlfurman · Forum Member Joined: Jun 18, 2002 Posts: 97

There is indeed a shift.

You now have more women in the industry, both as writers and artists.
Jeanette Khan (sp?) once was the head of DC Comics.
Comics are about FANTASY, so the exaggerated physical forms are going to appear.

But you have some female characters (not A-List) who are not all babes. Pink Pearl from the GLA, the Zatanna-clone (he code name escapes me) who uses her powers to give herself a "babe-a-licious" form, but she is anything but. There is a new book out called The Freshman and there is a full figured character there who even has one of the variant covers.

Granted they are not the majority, but there are sure to be more coming. There is a real life push (as there has been for a long time) to use "REAL" women in advertising. Funny thing about TV ads though, not all of the actresses are "BABES!!!"

As far as role models go, who actually walks around trying to be a good soldier like Captain America, or trying be like Spider-man? I think for both males and females, your role models should come from the real life you are living. Comic Books are/should be for the escape factor.

Also, the type of comics that are being produced are for a different market. There are some MANGA-philes here, but the manga market seems to have struck a chord with the young/teen females. The stories are different, than the standard superhero fare. The Manga Market is so vairied.
There are manga on cooking, sports, business, whatever, and not just folks in colorful spandex, bashing each others brains in.

It may even actually (as it all does) boil down to money.
"Hey a lot of money can be made if we can get more females to read our comics! How can we do that? What do females want to see? Let's try and incorporate that!"

OrcaDesignStudios

I think part of the problem with the way female comic characters are handled, at least in the super-genre, is that most of the well-established female characters are just female versions of established male heroes. Some are obvious, like Batgirl and Supergirl, but even Wonder Woman started out as little more than Superman with a vagina. This automatically makes them "less than" the male heroes, because the females didn't even get their own schtick -- they're saddled with rehashes of their progenitor's characteristics. Then, of course, there's the fact that they generally get "girl" suffixes to their names, rather than "woman." Though I will concede that Batgirl sounds better than Batwoman.

My biggest beef with the portrayal of female heroes is their subservience to the big male heroes. Wonder Woman may boss around someone like Nightwing, but she's still basically subservient to Superman. And there's no way she should be. She's a princess, virtually immortal, and pretty much Superman's equal in terms of power. It just seems to be the pattern for female heroes. No matter how powerful they are, they're still under the thumb of some big-name male hero.
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BorgBoy7 · Forum Newbie Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 4

In reply to the questions posed recent email from this website:

"New Roundtable - Women in Comics

Women in comics. Are they being portrayed as role models or eye candy? The majority of comic collectors are male, most of the stories are geared toward men (I mean come on..at least every comic has at least one fight in it), and it seems like every heroine has at least a D-cup.

Are there any good role models for young women that aren't "super-sized" so to speak?"

Firstly, yes and yes to portrayal of women as models and eyecandy. But isn't that true of the comic hero males as well? I mean really, no guys I know are that muscular or walk around in spandex showing how big their "Package" is. Let's face it men are little boys at heart, and boys love heros, violence and pretty girls (with D-cups). I'm not being sexist, I respect all women (of any cup size). As to the second half of the question about there being any good role models for young women that aren't super-sized, that remain to be seen. I don't think Sue Reed the Invisible "Woman" is a D-cup, and I think over the years her character has really grown and gained more respect as a female character. There are a lot of women characters being portrayed as big shapely busty super heroines. This is a trend that has been going on over the last 15 years aimed at the comic industries strongest customer base, Men. In effect, comics are becoming borderline softcore porn that is available to most teenage boys. This trend is a bad precedent, it may shape many young minds to think of how women should look and act. Fortunately, the female customer base is much lower than the male customer base. This fact in the end smacks some reality back up the side of our male heads. I like the comics but I don't like the idea that my nephew might get into comics, he's 4 by the way. He likes TV comic heros like Spiderman and Teen Titans.
Well this has been great blowing a little steam off but I've...We have more assimilating to do and, resistance is y'know futile......

BorgBoy7

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

Let's not overlook biology here. Men and Women are different.

Would Titanic be a huge hit if Jack had survived and Rose froze to death? Hell NO!

It's 2,000,000 years of evulation that make women physically weaker than men, in general. Comic books on some level are just reflecting that fact.

I challenge the idea that a women HAS to be a one to one equal to a man. A level of "WILLING" subservience of a women to a man isn't wrong. It's NATURAL. Even though I know that's not P.C. in todays world.

The fact is we are not androdegnouse. Even down to the chemical makup of our brains we are VERY different.

I think the "wrong" idea is to belive that being a woman is an inherant weakness.

No matter how strong my women is, I'm still going to be genetically programed to want to protect her even if she can kick my ass 8 ways to Sunday. Odds are... she's still going to want to cuddle in front of the fire place even if she can crack a walnut between her bicep and forearm.

At some point, our reason gives out to what nature made us to be.

The nature of the male/female relationship is about equality through compliment. That doesn't have to mean "under the thumb."

Slovman · Forum Newbie Joined: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 1

It should be known that the very same writer of "Women in Refrigerators" is Gail Simone, who is now writing Birds of Prey, arguably one of the more "cheesecake" titles art-wise out there. But Black Canary, Huntress, and Oracle are all strong, smart, distinct characters. Being portrayed art-wise as "babes" doesn't diminish that in anyway.

Wonder Woman just kicked and then saved Superman's butt a couple of weeks ago. She's not "under his thumb" at all. If anything, she's the most sane member of the Trinity at the moment.

Yeah, a woman's rape and murder was at the center of Identity Crisis, but a man's murder is the impetus for the current events in the DCU. Going back, who dies more often? The women or the men? Superman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Flash, Robin...to name just the major ones. Batman had his back broken. Almost every "marquee" male in the DCU has been dealt the ultimate setback, and yet people can't get over the fact that Oracle still sits in a wheelchair, completely disregarding the fact that she's a stronger, less derivitive character for it.

Are there positive female role models in comics? You're damn right there are. But I question the need for anyone in what is, quite frankly, just a form of entertainment, to be people that our children aspire to be. None of our kids will likely kick through titanium or burn down trees with their eyes, so it's absolutely ridiculous to expect that superheroes should be responsible for the moral and psychological development of our children. It is first and foremost, fantasy. So the women can all have huge breasts, the men can all look like bodybuilders, because it's not real and should never be expected to be real.

And honestly? Real life is far more cruel, demeaning, and unfair to women than any comic has ever been.

BorgBoy7 · Forum Newbie Joined: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 4

almeidapusmc · Forum Member Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 28

Had to jump in this one....especially since I'm a big eye candy offender but as you can see from my username, I'm military been in it for 16 years, work out, run, four to five days a week, spent four years jumping through stuff, digging holes, carrying heavy stuff on my back...the point...I still don't have a body even close to Tim Drake's and I've been doing what I do most of his life...shoot if he's 16 all of his life, and I'm not counting the 4 years of Cadet stuff through high school....every hero in comics is eye candy...except Ma Hunkle (the Red Tornado version...the version that's in the JSA...well...I'm not saying). At least woman really do wear bikini's and swimsuits sometimes, how many men do you know wear spandex with the BVDs on the outside (except me on Fridays that is)?

BillyBob · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

Well, THAT was a jarring mental image.

And before we get into a flame war about (1) the role of sexes in western society and (2) evolution versus creation, let's reign in the discussion and keep it to the topic on hand.

I think most of the posters in this thread accept that in general both the female physique and male physique are grossly exaggerated in comics, so let's put a slight spin on the original question and ask this: Does it matter? When you read a comic and see Random Big-breasted Woman, does it alter the way you view the character? Or do you just view it as art so you get your information about the character from the way she's written? (I'm especially interested in the opinions of the female Animotioners about this.)

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

finister · Forum Member Joined: Oct 21, 2002 Posts: 94

The assumption here is that beauty equals less-than-human qualities in a woman.

The flower does not begrudge the honeybee for being attracted to its beauty or fragrance.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being beautiful.

I would argue that the artists of the 60's and 70's had their own inner morals to contend with which they allowed others to dictate upon their own art - which is sad considering how damned gifted they were as artists and writers. Invisible Woman is a housewife through and through always worrying for her children - if she takes charge in the 60's and 70's, it's as a mother protecting, chastising her children.

Today's woman is not JUST a mother - that's not the entirety of her existence. Today's woman is complicated and free to decide what she will be - BUT - as Supes is at heart brawn (able to leap a building [not build one]) Wonder Woman of the 21st Century can be a seductress and a mother and a friend and a lover and just like Supe's outrageous muscles and brawn, SHE is beauty in all its complex glory.

There's nothing wrong with beauty - just our own personal baggage we have about beauty.

Now let's refer to our Danger Girl comics and enjoy the full glory of nature's full bosom of beauty

GlitchGirl · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:09 am Post subject:

Comic book heroes are about ideals and archetypes. This means chisseled muscles on the guys, large breasts and thin figures on the women. Of course there is a line where the depicition ceases being attractive and idealized and hit the "grotesque" area (women who look like they'd snap at he waist with breasts the size of beach balls, guys so muscular and veiny they look more like hamburger than human) and that's where I start going "ew".

I will say that female main characters are being written a lot better - less often the victim or the sidekick and more often the protagonist and active character and I like this. Even characters that started out as derivitive of other notables (Supergirl, Batgirl, Spider Woman) have developed their own identity. Female supporting cast OTOH, still has long way to go. Girlfriends, spouses, parents, siblings... here is where things tend to break down a little more. This is where they tend to be victims moreso than supporting male cast members (though male supporting cast does occasionally fall into this role) You want to attack a hero indirectly? Go for the girlfriend/wife. Now maybe I'm not reading the right titles, but it seems that female superheroes don't deal with this as much, usually by not HAVING significant others, or if they do, they tend to be "supers" as well. I could be wrong on this as I said, but it's just something I've noticed over the years.

And as for the whole God/Evolution thing: why do the two have to be mutuallty exclusive? Heck, the more I learn about science, the more I believe in a divine being that's directing it all.
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