Women in comics - Round Table

Hasdrubal · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:

The role of derivative super heroines is a worthy subtopic. During the 60's and 70's DC and Marvel handled their derivative characters differently. As Glitch Girl has said the derivatives like DC's Supergirl, Batwoman, and both of the Batgirl characters were mainly supportive characters dwelling in their male counterpart's shadows. There was one derivative DC character that was an exception to the formula, Hawkgirl. The two hawk heroes were married, but Hawkgirl actually had a higher rank than her husband in the Thanagar police force. She could be the boss when she wanted to. She would also sneek out while her husband was cooking dinner and go on adventures with other male superheroes.

There is one aspect to DC's credit in regards to derivative female heroines. The female derivatives were usually more interesting as characters than the "boy sidekicks". Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash, and Aqua Lad would never have succeeded as leading characters with their own solo series back then. Robin never had his own series until the 90's. The best thing they could do with the boys was throw them together in the Teen Titans series. "Titans" wasn't a popular series. Boy side kicks are the absolute bottom of the food chain for comics characters. Barring a few noteworthy exceptions, they're not even worth killing off.

The female derivatives that Marvel created during the 70's such as Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel were usually scripted with the idea of keeping the male and female versions as far apart as possible.

The first Spider-Woman origin story in Marvel Spotlight #32 had nothing to with Peter Parker. She was never bitten by a radioactive spider. She was genetically engineered by the High Evoloutionary. Although having a similar name, and similar powers, the writers didn't allow her to meet Spidey or Peter Parker until about 2 years had passed. The two character's rarely did team-up issues.

Ms. Marvel was a little closer to her male counter part than Spider-Woman. Her costume looked like Captain Marvel's, but the similarity mostly ended there. She had at least been a character in the 60's Captain Marvel series. As a government security agent, Carol Danvers had an adversarial relationship to Captain Mar-Vell who was originally sent to Earth as a spy. When Marvel Comics launched her series, Mar-Vell wasn't allowed a guest appearance until Ms. Marvel #19. That was the one and only comic Mar-Vell and Ms. Marvel ever appeared in together. Captain Marvel's death story was published as a graphic novel soon after the end of Ms. Marvel's series. Jim Starlin put nearly every Marvel hero and heroine in "The Death of Captain Marvel" but he intentionally left Ms. Marvel out of the story. The two were never allowed to be close, even in death or series canellation.

dlfurman · Forum Member Joined: Jun 18, 2002 Posts: 97

Re: Female derivatives of Male Characters
They were also created to protect copyrights.

Yojimbo · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

All:

Before I say, "Storm has a well-drawn, well-plotted caboose," some big think:

If the demographic is correct, then 92 to 98 percent of all comic sales are to men. Specifically, heterosexual men. Specifically, heterosexual men who enjoy an escape and who crave some sort of adventure.

That said, if 9.5 of 10 people buying comics are driving the industry, then the writing and artistic archetypes are going to favor the demographic. That's what will keep them coming back to the well. The golden rule applies -- he with the most gold makes the rules. In this case, male comic book buyers aged 15-35, middle class, have the gold and the comic book industry is seeking it in search for 'wallet share.'

I'd bet there's also a crossover demographic with the same audience that craves movies, Warhammer, D&D, online gaming, Trek conventions and others. And women just don't hustle to be part of it.

Flat-chested women don't sell comics. Neither do stories without violence, a hint of sexuality or an opportunity for a very cool weapon to be fired. And the people who make comics (who are now large entertainment companies with divested interested in film, television, Web and print) know all of this too well.

It would be silly for women to find role models in comics. Women are not looking for role models in comics. They are looking for them in areas where they are comfortable finding them (Oprah, morning shows, Redbook and other areas that suit their interests).

But (and this is a J-Lo sized BUT), that's not to say that paradigm can't change. It can. But why would the business people who run the comics business want to derail the money train?

Finally, certainly there's a niche market where women characters are abused, tortured, raped and torn down. But it's just that -- a niche market. There's an underground to everything in the world. That doesn't mean it marries up with society's stance as a whole, nor the average comic reader's, nor the average (or above average) comic writer's/artist's. It is merely to say that humans are, well, humans and, when given the circumstances -- means, motive and opportunity (and when no one's a lookin') -- humans, especially males, will turn to primitive survival programming. So, if the moment's right, and someone says, "Hey look, free boobies!", a guy's probably going to crane his neck around and gawk.

The moral: if you're a girl or woman looking for a role model, try community service and make yourself INTO one. Comics are a nice escape. As a creative, I can see how they inspire and allow us to expand our conscious. However (and here's my "Up with People" moment), we make the difference. We make ourselves role models, men and women. And we should do a better job given our societal climate today.

BillyBob · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

I declare Yojimbo to be the winner of this thread.

You hit the nail on the head on pretty much all counts. Unless someone else objects, I think we can move on to other topics. Speaking of which, has everybody sent some ideas for Round Table discussion to Sharby?

By the way, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed. It's great to see vets and newbies posting so often in a thread.

Sharby

BillyBob....a man after my own heart :wink:

MapleLeafSailor · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table

borkuu · Forum Member Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Posts: 43

Yojimbo said it very well....
hrmmmmm... you're right... RBBW would make an interesting chara.... let's see.. spandex.. check... impossibly high boots... check.... Pouch filled with various wigs etc.... maybe...
gravity defying..... have to work on those....
8 )
Cheers
_________________
For all the years I"ve watched them grow, I cant get over their spunk Prof. Kildare Ex-Mutants

TesLa · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 07, 2004 Posts: 2

Shameless self promotion
Interesting discussion and a subject I have recently been pondering. I was asked by my publisher to write a book on how to draw Fantasy Females for comics. They were after the typical big boobs and skimpy clothing that is so typical of the genre which, considering that this publisher is mostly staffed by women was a little strange. I suggested it might me better to do a book about developing female characters and suggested a whole range of 'types', which they liked as an idea. I then contacted a variety of artists, both female and male, to contribute characters for the book and I hope that it will help redress the balance, especially as it is aimed at teenagers. (The book is out in the New Year). It's a pity I didn't have all these opinions when I was doing the writing but I hope I am pointing in the right direction.
Part of the problem with women's roles stems from men's conditioning. Generations of comic readers have been fed these models and when they become creators they continue in the same mold, and I'm sure without often questioning why. There is also the whole wanting to make a living, too, which can cause artists to do what they are told or do what they are expected. I have always been puzzled by the fascination for large breasts. What do men find so attractive about them? Personally I think it's a conditioning passed down from another generation. Or some deep seated Freudian complex, except I don't buy into to any of Freud's theories, as Jung was the man, especially for anyone wanting to understand mythology and archetypes,a s comic creators should.
If I remember my history, Wonder Woman was originally created as a strong feminist role model, but was changed into the more subservient model in the late 50's/early 60's.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

Men like breasts because nature designed them for us.

Humans are the only creatures on the planet where the female's mamory glands retain fat year round.

In other speicies, most notibly our closest genetic cousins, chimps and apes, the females sex organs only become "enriched" when they are in esterous and ready to mate. That attracts the male to them.

The proto-humans females that survived best however were the ones that could maintain the interest of the male year round. So those that retained breast fat got fed better, taken better care of, and therefore reproduced more. Conversly, the men who were attracted to that mutation also out breed those who weren't.

This eventually led to the persecution of the breast when religious factions decided based on Malthusian principles, that reproduction was wrong.

Now breast were covered and taboo.... making them all that much more desireable because in addition to our natural attraction, the female body was no forbidden.

So between nature and the tampering with it by Judao-Christian social engenerring we have a western society that is breast fixated.

TesLa · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 07, 2004 Posts: 2

Really? How fascinating. Does that mean I am less of a man because I prefer smaller breasts which to my sensibilities are more aesthetically pleasing?
Maybe at a purely carnal, reproductive level this might be so, but choosing a life mate or someone to mother children just because of the size of the breasts does seem a bit superficial and not the best grounds either. And with all the comestic ehancement these days they are probably best avoided.
The size of the mammaries does not reflect on their ability to lactate, though.
And we seem to have really drifted from the topic into a socio-anthropologic discourse not totally related to women's roles in comics. But it does show that men are driven by baser intincts, even when it comes to art.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

Philodox · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 02, 2002 Posts: 6

GlitchGirl · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:21 pm Post subject:

idova · Forum Newbie Joined: Nov 10, 2002 Posts: 2

I think there is something that people are missing here about why the women and men are drawn the way they are. Sometime ago I was looking at the origanal stories and artwork from the 60's of spiderman and the x-men and others and noted how different the characters were drawn and thought about why that was and how we got to todays style (and please forgive any bad spelling and grammer).

I would like to start this idea with a point that ideas evolve over time, but they dont always start out going in the direction they end up at, example the story goes the head monk of a temple owned a pet cat and thats all the cat was his pet, stay with him when he meditated, the cat eventualy died and so the temple got him a new cat, eventually the monk died and the ownership of the cat passed on to the new monk, and was itself replaced when it died, 100's of years later great discussions are held over the importance of the head monk of a temple having a cat and how they are needed during meditation.

I know that this is not a true story but it does illustrate my point that how one idea (the pet) became a needed as part of a ritual and i think human form in comics moved in much the same way. Look back at the 60's and you see the human torch and iceman and they look nothing like what they do today, they are even comical and we all know the story of why the hulk is green and not grey, the printing process. It was never the greatest back then and people had to exaggerate as much as they could to show even the smallest detail, because the printing process chewed up the fine detail. A rule about women i saw from this time, any pre-pubestint girl was always in a dress and had either pig-tails or long hair otherwise you couldn't tell them apart from the boys, women teens wore dresses but if they had slacks (which you couldn't tell the difference from trousers) they then had long hair, any male that had long hair also had a beard and was often given an open shirt. It was as if the printing process conspired to make things as hard as it could to show men and women in any natural real world way.

We move on to the late 70's and 80's where the printing had improved to the point that these distinctions wernt needed but still almost always the children would still be in the same rules as before, but now this slightly exaggerated artwork, one bulit from nessicity showed slightly more fully formed women and more muscled males, why because this fine detail that was really there before but just lost to us was now being shown. Also the building upon the past was showing up where characters had to be more than they were and new characters had to matach that standard, example in the new mutants title cannonball was the tallest there, he was over 6'6" and a stick at that come to the end of the title's main run and he is struggleing to be the tallest and others are bigger (and badder) because each challenge that was overcome grew these characters and new characters had to match that same level.

Come to the 90's and on to the present and the image era, the printing process has gone digital and nothing is lost in the artwork, every little line and crease in the clothes can be seen and are shown and this gives us titles where both male and female characters are drawn at impossible angles with impossible forms (all done extremly well but not a real world form and fairs fair why should they) and the more powerful they were the larger they were, with the female characters you could almost hear the 'I am woman hear me roar" whenever they were drawn in profile, and as before the new people had to be more than the previous, almost all of the image titles were created by the young guns of the comic world and they showed that they could and would do more with the new technoigies in comics and their drawing reflected this. Now it's what is expected and going back to a previous style of a character or artwork is almost impossible and is done only by the best of all artists.

I think its unfair to just label the busty herione as a product of male desires, you have to look at where this came from how one step lead to the next, i mean if it was only about the cup size then they would of been super sized back in the 70's but they wern't, its been a process where over the last 50 odd years small steps have been taken to get to the figure of now, but for the most part they were steps taken because the technolgy used forced them in one way or the other.

I hope i have shown my idea (as best i could) about the evolution of the characters being more than just male desires and urges, and that the reasons are much more than just black and white.

Ratteler · Forum Member Joined: Jun 10, 2002 Posts: 548 Location: NYC

Excelent point. But some would say that's not so much an effect of new artists, as new artists who learned to draw from older ones instead of real anatomy books.

Perhaps the "morphing" into impossible proportians comes from a lack of real training rather than evolution of style.