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Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 637 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
I never knew there were serious questions of ideology involved. In college I read about John Locke, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, and Adolf Hitler. Some of them were well meaning. Some of them were evil. But not one of them ever wrote about the importance of "BIG BOOBIES".
Is there some other ideology besides capitalism, socialism, or fascism we didn't discuss?
To quote Bugs Bunny, "It could be you Doc."
Putting the jokes aside, please don't withdraw from the discussion. It may provide you more insight to male psychology. I find that people fight the most for, what they lack the most...... probably including a pair of hooters.
When I was working overseas, my boss's son had a pair of boobs implanted. He was trying to decide if he wanted to become a woman. Eventually he decided to keep his lower equipment, but from that day on, he rarely left the house.
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
I think you are overlooking John Locke's 'Essay concerning Human Understanding - an Empirical Investigation into Bubbies'
Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Hooters" and that chapter in Das Kapital that deals with the role of big knockers in the collapse of industrial capitalism.
Admittedly I don't remember anything in Mein Kampf but that was probably because Hitler had only got one ...objective and it didn't include DD cups.
Your boss's son (3 s's can that be right?) probably didn't leave the house because he was fed up with people talking to his chest like they thought he'd had a pair of ears transplanted down there too.
I often feel impelled to say "Talk to the face 'cos the breasts aren't listening" but don't in case I'm thought forward.
Withdraw from the discussion?
When I'm having such fun?
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 637 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
In his case, staying at home was a type of addiction to the "old number one", or the shameful curse of having an opposable thumb and an overly imaginative brain. His surgery didn't make him any happier. He wasn't attractive in either of his two gender roles. As strange as he was, I can't judge his desires harshly. The thought process of a person who creates his own unique gender is something I'll never understand. Can you fault the heart for wanting what the heart wants? It's little wonder that normal men and women don't always understand each other.
I think you know it isn't "ideology" that drives desire. If one discounts the influence of bio-chemistry on behavior, (which shouldn't be overlooked), then "mythology" becomes the driving force of behavior. Breasts are important in ancient primitive tales. In Greek mythology there are all sorts of amusing stories such as Hera squirting the stars of the Milky Way from her breasts. Jung wrote about the importance of the "Collective Unconsious" and "Archtypes", but Stan Lee has written more plainly about the modern need for mythology. Stan created his pantheon of heroes, warriors, maidens, demi-gods, and monsters for entertainment, but mythology can serve a deeper need than child-like amusment. Mythology has power because it taps directly into the desires of the heart and imagination, the two things that make life worth living.
If a person adopts a philosophy or "ism" lacking in imagination or heart, "humorlessness" is a dead give away. Being humorless is also the sign of a wasted life. I'm glad you haven't completely stumbled into the trap.
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
Yes but...
the reason breasts are important in ancient mythology is because of their relationship with nurturing and procreation, Hera wasn't getting her tits out for the lads she was illustrating their primary biological function, which unsurprisingly, is actually not to grace the pages of magazines.
Myths have always served the dominant ideology - note how woman's role in myth has changed over the centuries: originally she is autonomous, taking a string of young lovers; then in Rome and Greece split functionally into roles defined by the emerging patriarchy: (virgin, sex object, wife, mother) until finally with the rise of monotheism, she is reduced to either virgin or whore.
Myths tap into fundamental desires indeed -the question is why should it always be male desires?
As regards humour or the lack thereof I find most people have a blind spot where their 'holy cows' are concerned - cf Isaac Hayes and South Park.
I wonder what your blind spot is, Hasdrubal? _________________ A broken stereotype is a beautiful thing
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 637 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
Lets explore the old Pagan myths a little more.
The ancient myths did cater to some women's desires in both direct and indirect ways. Hera didn't have the title of "Goddess of Revenge", but she was extremely wrathful in the matter of Zeus' endless infidelities with other goddesses and lowly mortals. The stories would have been great soap opera for the few Greek women who could read, or emancipate themselves from the drudgery of pre-industrial life. There aren't always references to nudity in the written myths, but the Greeks routinely sculpted both male and female religious characters nude for all the lads to see. Their culture was neither shy nor prudish. The human form was almost as worshiped as the gods themselves. In an indirect way Pagan myths benefited some women's desires by giving men a female authority figure that demanded love, respect, and veneration. A man could love the obtainable mortal women, twice as much for having loved the unobtainable immortal goddess.
I'm not sure where you're idea of myth serving ideology comes from unless it's possibly Marx. If one acccepts Karl Marx's idea of "Religion is the opiate of the masses", then you're correct, myths do serve an ideology. Frankly beyond giving an alternative viewpoint, Marx offers little more than a path to tyranny, based on exploiting proletarian ignorance and class jealousy. Athough Marx's point of view influences many seemingly well educated people, the dialectic logic barrowed from Hagel falls apart if closely examined. The idea of remaking man into a new being to live in a new society is as weak and unrealistic as the myths it was designed to replace. The truth is quite the opposite, ideology serves myth. The fall of Polish Communism in the 80's convinces me that myth is strong enough to crush even the strongest of ideologies. Another reason why myth is not the servant of ideology, is that it wasn't usually written by those in charge of governing. The authors of myth were usually illiterate ordinary people sitting around small camp fires under the stars. If you doubt it, go camping with a large group and see how long it takes for someone to tell or make up a story.
You're also ill informed on the roles of women in monotheism. There was an additional, but very special role some women played in the early Christian sects, the role of religious martyr. Depending on one's point of view, the role could be easily over looked. To a non-believer they were nothing more than stupid lion bait in the Colloseum. To true beleivers no one could have greater status. In such cases myth did fulfill desires, when the martyrs refused offers to recant their faith.
In the centuries before industrialization it's easy to answer the question of why myth served male desires more often than women. Life in the old days required that at least one responsible person in every home had the important but tedious task of keeping a wood fired stove, oven or fireplace burning all day. In ancient Rome, the responsibility took on the importance of culthood among the Vestal Virgins. It seems like a trivial thing to our modern perspective, but living without electrical appliances would be an unbearable laborious task for most normal people. If they rerun it again, watch "The 1900 House" reality show on PBS or BBC. You'll see what I mean. Electrical home appliances might have a stronger influence on emancipating the woman from the home than political involvement. If not, than why did it take until the 20th century to happen?
In the 20th century, attempts at creating heroic mythologies for women have largely failed due to a lack of demand by women themselves. To his credit, Stan Lee attempted to create several super-heroine characters and series in the late 40's to capture the female marketing segment. He also wanted to compete with H.G. Peters' flat chested hideously drawn Wonder Woman. Stan's characters were drawn as attractive athletic women without exceptionally large breasts. Namora, Sun Girl, Miss America, Golden Girl, and Blond Phantom are largely forgotten today. None of the heroines were capable of generating enough sales with young girls to continue publication past a few issues. In response to the poor sales, Marvel and other publishers launched new comic series for girls with romance themes and characters like "Millie the Model" and "Patsy Walker". Today few collectors have any interest in Millie, or Patsy. Oddly Millie ran for an impressive 30 years until cancellation. Patsy eventually became the Hell-Cat in Marvel's quirky 70's "Defenders" series. By then, most of the romance series sales perished from double digit inflation and a drop in demand. In the late 70's Lee attempted to launch a second wave of female super-heroines for a male target audience with larger breasts. Marvel launched series featuring Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Dazzler, and She-Hulk with a little better response than decades before. Only the Spider-Woman series could be considered successful in terms of the number of issues published before cancellation.
You are correct about me having sacred cows. Some of them do serve a purpose. Some of my better ones include, no canabalism, no involuntary human sacrifices, no enslaving women, no mandatory male or female boob jobs, and no Broadway show toons.......and never missing an episode of South Park.
I have a blind spot for vengeful goddesses, but so did Zeus and mad old Caligula.
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
I think you'll find that on closer examination the Hera/Zeus stories are actually a male fantasy - Zeus plays away (the dog!), Hera finds out and disposes of his paramour by turning her into a cow or something leaving Zeus conveniently free to romp off to pastures new.
I am no expert but not one version have I read where she kicks Zeus in the nuts, throws him off Mount Olympus or cuts up his chitons.
So you've heard the story about the statue of Venus too.
I have no problems with nudity as such btw. Au contraire mon ami.
I am more familiar with the works of Groucho than Karl, so I will just point out that where myths do not serve the ideology of the day they are suppressed, neutered or otherwise twisted to suit the dominant mindset - thus Astarte becomes the demon Ashtoroth and Little Red Riding Hood instead of getting down and dirty with the wolf (it wasn't just his teeth that were big you know) turns into a hapless victim in need of rescue by the heroic male.
Go camping with a large group! What are you thinking Hasdrubal? I'm a city girl, I don't do the great outdoors.
Yes, sadly I am remarkably ill informed on the role of women in the early Christian church, I just took the last 1800 years or so as being more representative.
I would also point out that most, if not all, of the female martyrs were celebrated for their virginity as much as anything more empowering or indeed useful
QED M'Lud.
I don't quite get the point you are making about labour saving devices btw I caught a bit of 'the Victorian House' and it was not entirely outside my experience having cooked on a wood burning Aga and having an open fire at home. I don't hoover (no carpets) and have no dishwasher. No big deal
People (particularly pre- 19th century) were not quite so fussy about cleanliness and hygiene as nowadays either, plus they generally had servants for that sort of thing - even quite poor people if Dickens is anything to go by but I digress....
No demand for female biased myths in comic books? I think part of the answer lies in the fact that they were largely being commissioned, written and illustrated by men.
How well or widely were they marketed I ask myself.
Also although I'm sure that your own emporium is perfectly female friendly, many are not. Either that or I myself have the hitherto unsuspected power to turn completely invisible when waiting to be served at the counter of a Comicbook shop.
Funnily enough its exactly the same in PC world.
Get your shop some scatter cushions and scented candles, man! _________________ A broken stereotype is a beautiful thing
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 637 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
There was one more obscure 1940's Marvel-Timely Comics series I forgot about. Lec, you may be interested in "Miss Fury". It's was the only early super-heroine to be written and drawn by a woman. Eight issues were published from the Winter of 42 to the Winter of 46.
Here's a quote from the 1978 Overstreet Comics Price Guide.
" Another artist distinguished in the field of superheroine comics was Tarpe Mills. Her contribution to the genre was the totally unique and facinating Miss Fury. Originally a comic strip created in early 1940's, the drama of Miss Fury was chronicled in a series of eight reprint comics published by Timely Comics from 1942 to 1946. Miss Fury was actually a Brazilian heiress who inherited a costume of black panther skin endowed with supernatural powers. The use of the panther skin is ironic, for with every good deed it also brought two misfortunes. Regardless of the melodramatic situation, Tarpe Mills created an incredible cast of characters to revolve around the adventures of Miss Fury. The major part of the comic saw Miss Fury in and out of her street clothes as Marla Drake. The villainess of the strip was the ruthless advnenturess Erica Von Kampf. A totally absorbing personality, Erica was a striking image with her blonde bangs cut in a triangular shape to conceal the swastika branded on her forehead.
Miss Fury was a curious blend of heroine and superheroine comics. The entire ambiance of the strips was dreamlike in its simplicity, the dialogue was straightforward and quite mature. Reading Miss Fury was almost like watching a movie. Part of this is due, certainly, to Tarpe Mills' (pronounced Tarp/a) contributions as both writer and artist. Miss Fury was not her only contribution to the world of comics. During the 1940's she also produced an adventure strip entitled "The Purple Zombie" as well as the exotic "Mann of India". Neither of these matched the quality and sophistication of storytelling found in Miss Fury. In order to give a bit more panache to the comics, Tarpe Mills included paper dolls of Marla Drake, Erika Von Kampf, and Era the Brazilian bombshell guerilla. It was this type of sensibility coupled with the creative drive of a highly independent woman artist that made Miss Fury a unique entity in the comics."
Additionally, I read about Tarpa Mills having been a professional fashion model at one time, and that she drew the character to resemble her own gorgeously well endowed, athletic self. I'm not sure if she modelled in the U.S. or in her home country, Brazil.
Miss Fury became obscure because Marvel never owned the rights to the character, and couldn't sell reprints or write new stories after the series was cancelled. It was a licenced property like Mighty Mouse, or Tarzan that pass from publisher to puplisher.
I've only seen a few panels of interior art and the eight outer covers from the series. The quality of the work really kicked ass. (Especially if it's compared to Harry Peters' nasty skritchy scratchy 40's Wonder Woman.) Sadly, it didn't last much longer than any of Stan Lee's ill fated heroines.
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
Many thanks for that info. I shall have to keep my eyes open.
With regard to female superheroines for the 21st century check out my new post 'A new Superheroine' and tell me what you think. _________________ A broken stereotype is a beautiful thing
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 637 Location: Planet Mongo
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Women in comics - Round Table
Fortunately, there are still better ways of getting my fleeting 15 minutes of "Andy Warhol" fame. There has to be a better means of doing it all, "to impress Jodi Foster."
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