National pride.

DalekSupreme · Forum Newbie Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 7

I am English, by ancestry Cornish (a celtic remnant) When I lived in England I was part of a federal state called Great Britain where we rubbed along with other nationalities like the Scots, Irish and Welsh, and yet some people are violently opposed to us being part of a proto-federal Europe.

So what is so great about being English? Really our fundamental streangth as a nation historically was our tolerance and being able to accept other cultures and add them to our own. We were the human borg!

Name some things that made England the worlds most powerful nation, or that are quintesentially English? Who really invented them?

The industrial revolution: Scots
Railways: Scots
The Bank of England: Dutch
Modern financial institutions: Jews
Mathematics and Physics: Arabs
The Fabric industry: Flemmish/hugenot french
The bowler hat: Belgian
The national dish: Curry: Indian
Fish and chips: Belgian
The concept of the English nation: Normans
Tea: China/india
Ceramics: China
Rock and roll / popular music: USA but really Africa
Good plumbing: Rome

And finally

The Royal Family: France/Germany/Scotland

I repeat the strength of the English was in our willingness to welcome other people into our boarders and give them a home/opportunity they did not get elsewhere. WE ALL BENEFITTED FROM THEIR EFFORTS. We English are a mongrel nation.

What did the English invent: Competative sports. Cricket, Soccer, and rugby etc. and even these we did not take seriously.. until recently.

That used to be one of the strengths of the USA too.

Would you believe that there a fare more restictions in travel now than there were in 1900? As a proportion of the global population fewer people travel abroad than they did in 1900?

Nationalism is a relatively recent invention developed as a consequence of the French revolution as a method of controling people, and to drive the French population behind a new form of goverment, to drive out the invaders lead by the nervous monarchies of Europe. It then spilled beyond the French boarders and infected the rest of Europe as the French in turn became the invaders.

That is why Political parties and leaders espouse it today.

"Our Nation is threatened by others! That is why we must place restrictions on your freedom to travel, your freedom of speach, your freedom to believe what you want to believe. that is why we must monitor your every move....just in case."

They want to control us. By making us fearful of Others we are easier to control Nationalism is an easy tool to use. Along with religion.

I now live in Australia. Another Great Nation as are they all. Surrounded by Aussies who say they are Greek, German, Lebanese, Chinese. This is a nation just forging its unique cultural identity.

I am now Proud to be an Aussie. Proud to be English, Proud to be British, Proud to be European, but I admire every other nation on earth, (not necessarily their leaders).

The USA can be wonderful, and terrible (the worst poverty I have ever seen anywhere was in the USA), France is a glorious place to live, China a land of 4000 years of history, The Native American culture is incredible and rich.

Every nation has something to offer mankind If we would only remove the fear, learn respect for cultural diversity, challange our own ignorance, and be tolerant.

If England had acted in the past like political leaders of today would like us to act now.... then we would still be farming sheep and little else.

Nationalism has its place...in the past.

itisitex · Forum Member Joined: Sep 01, 2002 Posts: 177 Location: Tx

It is not a question of where or when nationalism exist it is what is nationalism.
Here is one idea of what nationalism is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

here is another http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861632464_561538970/prevpage.html

And one last http://beetfoundation.com/words/n/nationalism.html

Each one of these is different but the last one is the one that defines it in its most common use.

thausgt · Forum Newbie Joined: Oct 17, 2005 Posts: 6

Hi, all!

Quick introduction of where I'm from:
Genetically, I have confirmation of German, French, English, Irish, Scotch, Welsh and Norwegian in my heritage. Culturally, it's a little harder to nail down, but my parents tried to weld me into Protestant Christian faith, and I've lived in Arizona, New Mexico, Michigan, and Californa, not to mention two separate stints in different parts of Canada. Born in Charleston, SC, but I don't claim much in the way of Dixie in mind or body.

I'm with Ironbear on this one: the American culture is quite separate and distinct from the American government in my mind and heart. I direct the audience's attention to "The American Value System: Premises for Persuasion," (Western Speech, 26, 1977, p.169, E.D. Steele & W.C. Redding, auth's.) I would also like to direct the audience's attention to "Understanding Your Greatest Enemy" (Dr. G.J. Morris, Shadow Strategies of an American Ninja Master, Frog Ltd. c/o North Atlantic Books, 1996, pp.98-111), which contains the list of the core values of the American culture originally published in the first article, with additional commentary on the "negative" or "Shadow" that manifest when these core values are abused. The basic values are:

...and, of course, the one for which I must add a bit more detail...

Patriotism
In a positive sense, "Americans are loyal to their traditions and values." However, as a general rule, "Americans sometimes fail to recognize aggression that does not appear warlike, as they are individualists and allow strangers a great deal of rope." Dr. Morris goes on to say that "[t]he shadow [of patriotism] is knee-jerk jingoism." Which is to say that when it becomes easier to let the government do your thinking for you and you hardly bother to pay any attention to your own feelings, you've abdicated a great deal of what makes you human, let alone American.

Having said all of this, I will say that I'm glad to live in a country and culture that allows me to put all of these views in print for anyone with Internet access and an account on this board to read without worrying about consequences more serious than being flamed...

frndofyaweh · Forum Newbie Joined: Sep 14, 2002 Posts: 1

"Without wishing to offend anyones sensibilities, to me, once shorn of the rhetoric, nationalism is little more than the human equivalent of a dog piddling up a lampost to mark his territory.

Of course love of one's geographical territory can be a positive force when it promotes a sense of kinship or establishes/re-inforces a decent way of behaviour for example - but inevitably this can only be at the cost of defining other nations and ethical codes as not-kin and evil."

I can only agree with what Lectatege said above, however it is mans choice to let pride, spiral into prejudice.

Josephus · Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:50 am Post subject:

...and an armchair historian chimes in...

Nationalism, statism, patriotism, and tribalism are not inherently bad things. Love of one's country and one's people can be a very good and positive thing.

*Blind faith* in one's country, regardless of what the government is up to, on the other hand, is a bad thing. Any government (made up of all-too-fallible people) can go down the wrong path, as we've seen time after time throughout history. It's my opinion that a citizen of any modern nation should do his or her best to be as well informed as possible, so that he or she can best react to what the government is up to.

I'm fortunate enough to live in the US, a country with a (fairly) representative democracy, so that if I do not like the direction in which my country is going I can let my opinion be known through the ballot box.

Tangentially related to blind faith in one's country is blind hatred of anyone who is not like you (prejudice and outright racism). This is based, unfortunately, upon a very human tendency to fear that which is different. And do I have to say that this is just plain wrong?

lectatege · Forum Member Joined: Mar 14, 2006 Posts: 203

[quote="Josephus
*I'm fortunate enough to live in the US, a country with a (fairly) representative democracy, so that if I do not like the direction in which my country is going I can let my opinion be known through the ballot box."

Mmmm
from what I understand from the election before the last one that is a bit of a moot point.

Jonathan · Forum Newbie Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 1

OK. Been a while since I reponded to a post of this nature, but here goes

It is a catch-22 that has bedevilled and buggered civilization since two brutes with rocks looked at the brutes without and grunted syllables to the effect "Ugh! Now we protect our women, and can take theirs TOO! Rock GOOOD!" As with all of our tools, the beast looks to destroy with those tools even as the higher creatures within seek to build with them.

Our governments are tools as well, but after millenia of developing and refining the tool of civilization there are still those who believe that it is the tool that defines the value rather than the purpose to which we put it. (Sudden image of people turning their backs on a new technology because it is too newfangled and DANGEROUS pops into my head.)

This is why there are folks who support the tool without judgement rather than judging the hands that are wielding them, or to what purpose the tools are being put. ALL of our nations have those who truly want to refine and build something safer, and more free with the tools/gov'ts we have at hand, but the catch is that there are those who can and will use those tools to tear others down to get what they want. This is why it is so important to divorce pride from the tool and put it where it belongs... in Principles.

And so to that picture that popped into my head a couple of paragraphs back. Sometimes our Tools become obsolete, or unwieldy and need to be replaced/improved upon. The jingoists, zealots, and ultra patriots out there are too much in the grip of pride of "tool" rather than principle. They are frequently the ones who have let the responsibility of judgement fall into the hands of the brutes and greedy gits. Gits who are only too happy to keep them loyal to the very tools that they themselves have scorned and usurped for ends having nothing to do with actual principles.

That's right folks. The nationalists are little more than fodder for the brutes who have taken up and supplanted the principles for which our many nations were formed to uphold and protect. Fodder, and soldiers.

Love the land, the principles, the ideals, but be ready to discard the tool in a heartbeat if it proves to be inefficient or downright hazardous to yourselves and your neighbors when used. After all, it -IS- only a -TOOL- you know.

"My Screwdriver, Right or Wrong!" ??
"The Lawnmower will last 1000 YEARS!"
"Viva la Backhoe!"
"Making the world safe for Dentist Drills"
"The Crane Operator's Burden"

Kind of silly, no?

There have been times when Monarchies have been more interested in protecting the liberty of the populace than the current self-appointed watchdog of liberty. And there have been times when the guardians of Freedom have been far more vile and murderous than the dictators.

Time for a new set of tools, folks.

Better the pride that resides
in a citizen of the world,
Than the pride that divides
when a colorful rag is unfurled"

(ohmigoddess, i'm actually quoting Rush in a discussion! Last time I did that we didn't have access to the internet! :lol:

)

Jonathan

Josephus · Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:55 am Post subject:

Erox · Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:

lectatege · Forum Member Joined: Mar 14, 2006 Posts: 203

[quote="JosephusThus the "fairly" placed in my description of American democracy. :-P

[/quote]

True, but then the disclaimer should more properly have been applied to the possibility of change through the medium of the ballot box rather than the seperate and equally thorny question of representation.

Nit picker?
Moi?

Gustvoc · Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: National pride.

I love my country but I have to live with the stereotypes every time that I travel to the U.S. or other country some people is unpolite with me, other are very good, is a shame that most of the people and journalist just bring and remember the bad news.

Now with Internet I have the opportunnity to chat with people from China, Spain, France, England, United States, Russia, and is a great opportunity to learn more about different cultures.

bgraves · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 21, 2004 Posts: 2

DalekSupreme · Forum Newbie Joined: Oct 14, 2005 Posts: 7

Dose'nt your ability to change the way your government is going depent upon if your voting district has been gerrymandered or not?

If you have a politician you can vote for who is brave enough to offer an alternative view to the governments and then go without the Pork barrel funding to bribe his constiuents with to protect his job?

A politician who is wealthy enough to go without kickbacks from lobbyists representing vested interests in oil and the military industrial complex?

A politician who is honest?

A politician who will represent the majority views of his consituents even if he opposes them personally?

Wow thats a big ask in the West Today....

Hmm how can they stop us looking at all their little pecadilloes and backhanders? Oh I know lets create an external threat!

Lets tell the people that the national integrity of our proud homeland is threatened by.....Outsiders! Lets tell them that unless we expend millions keeping them safe by removing metal cutlery from aircraft and building a huge fence make out of chicken wire, they could all be Blown up by a bloke with a bomb and a grudge!

Lets ignore the fact that we trained and funded the terrorists in the first place, to blow up someone elses children, but not ours!

lets ignore the fact that we are quite happy to support dictators if they do what we say.

Lets ignore the fact that the people stand a better chance of being hit by a car driven by an underage alcoholic thief, who has turned to drink and a life of crime due to our appalling underfunded education system than being a victim of a terrorist!

We want the people ignorant! We want them to actually believe what they see on Fox News! We want them to live in fear, then they will think they have no choice! They have to vote for us!

Because we are PATRIOTS! We will defend them from the... Others! And the mere fact that we run or our families have huge shareholdings in the big companies that make money out of our actions will get swept under the carpet! Because we also own the media!

Hurrah! My own country right or wrong! Appeal to nationalism!

And we do own it.....literally.

Nationalism is a tool used by leaders to make us do what they want, not what is necessarly best for our nation or our planet.

It is time we took a long hard look at our domestic politicians instead before we sweep away someone elses, and sod nationalism.

Samuel Johnson:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"

E M Forster:
"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country"

Senator Carl Schutz:
"My country right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right!"

George Bernard Shaw:
"You'll never have a quiet word until you knock the patriotism out of the human race."

(And If this may seem unpatriotic I lost a good friend in 911 and have a brother in law serving with the British Army in Iraq. One an innocent victim of foreigh policy blunders, and One who is trying to protect the lives of his men and other innocent people from the continuation of those blunders.)

whiz · Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: Re: National pride.

first off i am an american living in germany. many of my close friends are also americans. our reasoning is the increasing crime rates,prejudice, costs of living and the increasing arrogance and ignorance of a nation built on the blood sweat and tears of people from all over the known world. past and present.
don't get me wrong i love my country. but as a people our tolerance of ourselves and other peoples of the world is at an all time low. i wonder at times how we can keep calling ourselves "the home of the free" when the only time we are truly free is outside our own countries. whiz

Flappy · Forum Newbie Joined: Jun 17, 2003 Posts: 3

Hi everyone, I've been a member for a while but I've never posted anything yet. This is my first addition to a forum.. Please be gentle...

I belive that Iorn bear is right in that people do need to feel that they belong to a community and have a history.. the explosion in tracing ancestors proves that. But at the moment the british people are under threat from their own government who are eroding their own sense of identity, not out of malice or a sinister agenda but becouse they think they know what's best. The English people are lost and losing their way daily, they feel every one else can be proud of their country and traditions but they're not allowed. Some are fighting back with Nationalism, the BNP are a case in point, but this is not the answer. Having a sense of identity and a pride in who you and your ancestors are is not a bad thing, Nationalism is an extreme and all extremes are by their very nature a step too far.. I although born in England do not feel part of England, but neither do I feel I belong anywhere else. Friends and relatives have solved this by emigrating, to try to belong to another country. I rejected this solution if I'm going to feel an outsider I might as well be an outsider in a place I recognise.. My children are growing up with the same sense of not belonging. They think in reality my wife and I are Aliens from another planet and were just visiting. How come the sense of isolation is that strong in two small children..
One thing I do feel strongly about is that Nationalism and extremists is all about power and control. This is wrong it focuses peoples attention away from the important things in life - the children the planet and the future. We are a very small lump of earth and water hurtling through space our existance so fragile, and so much out there we know so little about. To presume in our arrogance we are unique in the universe is folly, so if you want an extreme kind of Nationlism how about Planatery, Galactic or Universal Nationalism if that is possible are we in our squabbling prepared for the potentially devestating results of that??

The boundaries of Mankinds mind is so small...