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The English haven't had a concrete identity for a long time - as a child I hadn't a clue what our national dress was supposed to be and could only surmise that it involved a bowler hat somewhere - (mind you I thought the German national costume was WW2 battle dress but that was from reading too many comics) - but it is only recently that we have started to worry about it.
I suspect there is an agenda behind this drive to establish some sort of English identity, and I think paart of that agenda has to do with resistance to our involvement in the European Union. It is a constant cri du coeur of the tabloids that we are under the heel of Brussels but in contrast there is nary a peep about the relentless coca-colonisation of these islands.
And meanwhile the most important and long established elements of British life - habeus corpus, trial by jury, independence of the judiciary,presumption of innocence, free education and health care, freedom to protest peacefully, and the right to privacy - to name but a few, are being steadily eroded to the point where we will soon be a police state.
I am a law abiding and in some respects model, (if not modest) citizen; and it is a rum do when someone like me is more afraid of my own government than I am of terrorists _________________ A broken stereotype is a beautiful thing
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Re: National pride.
lectatege, you are so right. Haven't you noticed though that apathy lets the govenment do exactly what they want.. From an early age our kids are tought by their peers not to be smart, don't work hard - it's not cool, don't stand out, don't be different, and most of all don't ask questions. Why the hell not.. We are all different and the only way to learn is to question evrything. I presume it comes all down to identity and confidence, or lack of it.
At a local meeting in out area - which was to decide the future of a nature reserve nearby - no one could be bothered to turn up - it was a double episode of Coronation Street. It would seem people would rather concern themselves with imaginary lives rather than their own...
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Love the LAND, not the NATION
Jonathan wrote:
<snippity-snip>
There have been times when Monarchies have been more interested in protecting the liberty of the populace than the current self-appointed watchdog of liberty. And there have been times when the guardians of Freedom have been far more vile and murderous than the dictators.
Time for a new set of tools, folks.Jonathan
Indeed. The problem is that these tools must be forged and used in the scariest place of all: within ourselves.
Laws and policies and suchlike when printed on pieces of paper become little more than mazes designed to keep rats (the citizens) from getting the cheese they want (usually immoral or detrimental to personal/environmental health but oh-so-yummy), and we all know how well rats can learn to run mazes. But what if the rats didn't feel the need to run the mazes?
Consider the ever-accumulating quantities of objectively-verifiable evidence that treatment is not only a superior response to convicts whose crimes were motivated by drug addictions (as opposed to incarceration), but that treatment is simply effective where incarceration is not. This view is politically unpopular (mostly to the booming prison construction/management industry) but is becoming harder to ignore because the drug problem is getting even more serious.
That's just *one* issue among dozens, if not hundreds. Finding the solutions have meant looking to the 'wisdom of the ages' to see what worked yesterday or last year or whenever.
BUZZZ! Sorry, thanks for playing. In the One-and-Twenty, especially in an age where the CIA forgot to keep the flight plans for its private planes out of the oh-so-secret "Farm" off the Internet, it becomes pretty obvious that all problems should be solved at the source, rather than making the symptoms less noticeable. More importantly, since there's so much more information available to so many more people, it's becoming harder to justify sloppy short-term fixes when all kinds of relevant information (budgets, effectiveness of previous short-term fixes, etc.) can be located with ease.
Yes, it's time-consuming to research a problem fully. Especially when the process as well as the results must frequently be translated into "Captain Dummy-speak" (thank you, American 'educational' system) so that the law-makers, let alone the affected citizens, understand them.
Yes, it can be expensive, or politically unpopular, or not according to party policy.
But considering that we are, all of us, living in a world that is inflicting the effects of previous-generations' "buck-passing" upon us, and that those effects are getting more and more detrimental, I sincerely hope that some genuine solutions are coming down the pike...[/i]
I am a law abiding and in some respects model, (if not modest) citizen; and it is a rum do when someone like me is more afraid of my own government than I am of terrorists
Indeed. But then again, as long as folks like Alan Moore continue to produce works like "V for Vendetta"... and as long as such things are still legal and freely available... there remains hope.
I don't think that a "Lee Harvey Oswald" mask would have quite the same impact on this side of the pond as a "Guy Fawkes" mask, especially now that the aforementioned comic has become a movie, but I suppose that leaves our collective colonial hands free to come up with our own symbols... and actions...
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: National pride.
Flappy wrote:
lectatege, you are so right!
Ah, music to my ears.
Never mind, before we immerse ourselves completely in Stygian gloom, I should say that on a personal one to one basis I still find people kind and considerate and well-meaning, and through places like this forum I have struck up acqaintances with people from backgrounds, cultures and countries very different from my own - and I still find them kind and considerate and well meaning.
[quote="bgravesTalk about “pre-programmed” responses… The election was recounted several times by numerous independent commissions and left-wing media outlets and Bush won every time. Gore lost. Get over it. The law and process was followed and however close that particular state election was, the chips fell to Bush "
Sorry, I seem to remember some talk about voters in pro-Gore states being disenfranchised on the grounds that they had names a little bit like convicted felons, and a few other minor electoral irregularities?
I missed the bit where they sorted all that out and did it again properly
My mistake.
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: National pride.
Flappy I am sorry that you feel like an alien in England. As an englishman living overseas all be it in an Anglo Saxon culture I can understand some of what you feel.
As I have mentioned before in my previous postings the one great strength of English culture was our tolerance and willingness to welcome people from other cultures. Hell we even let the Scots run our government. This historic tolerance and acceptance and lack of nationalism is what makes me proud to be English, it is our cultural heritage.
The BNP and those that vote and support it have no idea of the benefits immigration has brought to England, culturally or economically. They are not English they are petty minded little englanders.
Simplistically, they are quite happy to buy their milk on a Sunday without saluting the people who came to England and worked damned hard 7 days a week in corner shops and made it possible.
If you feel alien in your homeland I feel saddened and dismayed that things have got so bad.
Unfortunately the education system does not teach our history well and most of all the media whips up a frenzy of nationalistic hubris that makes the polititans take knee jerk reactions to complicated matters. Producing bad laws that as lectatege has said restrict our fundamental freedoms.
Unfortunately the British House of Commons has also destroyed the one check on silly legislation by basically killing off the House of Lords.
I am no defender of aristocratic principle however there is some merit in having some organ of government that can take the long view and can temper the whims of polititans who can be blown about by a rampaging media.
A media that is mostly owned and controlled by very few individuals. Thank God for the BBC.
The English and British nation has been forged by Immigration as has the USA (send me your huddled masses) and those nations that put up walls and ejected people have always historically suffered. As a modern example Australia's recent phenominal economic and cultural growth has happened to coincide with the ending of the "White Australia" poilicy. Coincidence?
What do the newly independant nations of Europe do as soon as they threw off the yoke of Communist domination? Clamour to join the EU.
Englands long period of greatness was based upon our most culturally open time from the 1750's to the 1850's. We accepted new ideas, and people from all over the world, we went overseas to learn from others, we looked down our noses at European nationalism.
As soon as Jingoism, nationalism, protectionism and racism started to to rear their ugly heads we started our decline.
The same happened to The Chinese Empire, Rome, Napoleonic France, Alexanders Greece, The Empire of Charlemagne,The Mugal Empire in India, The German Empire, The USSR, and almost every past great power you could mention. Close your doors and shut out innovation growth and change.
History has a clear warning about the dangers of nationalism one that modern Nation States and the people who live in them would do well to heed.
Being proud in the achievements of your country is one thing, being disparaging about the achievements of other states and peoples and how you have benefitted and can learn from them is another.
Every nation and people has something to offer, humanity's diversity is our species greatest strength. Individuality and divergence from past norms, questioning preconcieved ideas, dissidence, and ultimately protest all have to be defended, as the things that allow us to grow as a species.
Flappy please continue to get involved, please carry on being an individual, please continue to ignore Coronation Street. You are more English by doing so than those stay at home little englanders, they are the aliens. I salute you and am proud to have you as a fellow countryman.
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: National pride.
One aspect that has not been touched upon by this debate maybe because it is too explosive is the attitude of those that move into another country. This seems to colour the view of most nationalist debates. (eg what cricket team do you support?)
As an immigrant I often get tarred with the attitude of previous UK immigrants to Austalia. Winging Pommies.
Personally I have taken the view that yes I am English and always will be even when I achieve Australian Nationality. It is hard to change the best part of 40 years of cultural indoctination. However I now live in another country and I have to change. Whats the point of winging that things are different here than they are in England!
For a start it dosen't rain every time you have a barbeque! Outrage! And... get this... you can actually taste the fish in fish and chips! Disgusting! There are bins on the street and most people don't just throw their rubbish on the floor! Appalling!
Australia is similar but at the same time very different from the UK. Quite dislocating. Some things are just like back in England some really strange. The Queens head is on the coinage but its Dollars. People drive on the left (as all civilised nations do! ) but have big V6 gass guzzling engines. The police have checkerboard patterns on their hats but carry guns. They have a labour party... but the liberals are in power!
The Australians are not British by another name they are a different and unique culture. This comes as a shock to some Brits who arrive here.
For me the adjustment is relatively minor, (my personal lack of nationalism makes it easier, and this is at heart another Anglo Saxon culture with a shared heritage) but if I find it too much...then I should go back to a place where I feel more comfortable and stop moaning, or get involved with where I am. Explain why something can change for the better to the benefit of all in my adopted homeland, or just understand and accept why some things just are the way they are. Understand what makes Australia unique and adapt, whilst adding my own uniqueness to the mix.
Some things are better here than in England (the food here is by and large wonderful), some are worse (but just try and get a decent dessert in a resturant). I miss foggy mornings, and a crisp frost on the ground, I love the Australian flora and fauna, and the sunshine, I miss the BBC, and decent news reporting, I love the cafe culture (thanks to the post war Greek and Italian immigrants) and the sheer size of the place.
The other benefit from my point of view is I get to support TWO teams, and don't mind who wins, especially if it has been a good game.
Its different here and thank God for that. Advance Australia Fair! I love my adopted homeland, as much as I love the land of my birth.
What do other people think?
By the way the USA soccer coach said Australia was just in the World Cup to make up numbers.....how many games has the USA won?... Australia has won one! Na na ne na na!
Yeuch! Jingoism raises it's shaggy head again! I thought I was immune.
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:04 am Post subject: Re: National pride.
Thanks for the vote in confidence DalekSupreme.
But unfortunatly things in England have got that bad. I'm that rare breed of individual - an optimistic cynic - I hope things will work but I know they wont. I agree that the best thing about England is the acceptance and tolerance of it's people, however when I was young, I had a friend who's parents came to England and joined their local community. By the by I live in the North.... He got some racial abuse at school but he could cope with that, what made him eventually leave when he grew up, was the insular attitude of his community, they didn't want to integrate and have their culture spoiled. This attitude, if it is nationalism, I think more fear of loss of control by religious leaders. Coupled as it was with the national and local government's active promotion programmes resulted in violent clashes.
This now is the state of affairs a small microsism of global events, hostile camps of distrustful individuals, ripe for the lies and manipulation of extremists from both sides.
You can't help people who don't want it.
But hey on the bright side the weather's nice at the moment...
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: Re: National pride.
Only seen one biggie about 15 cm across ! I squirted it with anti-spider spray it was still moving so in the end I had to hit it with the tin!
When I told my Aussi neighbours about it they laughed cos it was harmless. The dangerous ones are redbacks, tiny things about 2 cm's across with a bite that can knock you dead. Found one of them too! I just have a rule if its got more than 6 legs kill it and ask questions later. Sorry nature lovers...but its them or me!
With regards to the thorny question of immigration I think that where there is some positive experience of multiculturism on the part of both immigrant and host, either from growing up in a mixed community or through education, integration happens naturally and easily without anybody feeling 'swamped'.
Problems arise where either side have grown up in a small closed community be it a rural village in Pakistan or its equivalent in Britain.
When you only know one thing its always so much easier to cling to the one thing know...
Technically I live in a town, but really it is a big village and one thing thing I really miss from the big city is the tremendous variety of culture. Here apart from food shops, it is one white face after another and anyone darker than a digestive stands out a mile.
Conversely there are small areas in most cities where there is hardly a white face to be seen - enabling the BNP to play on the fears of the few white residents that 'they' are taking over the country.
Ironically although my family have been in Britain forever (as far as I know) I occasionally have been on the receiving end of racist abuse myself on account of my looking vaguely exotic - either greek/french/jewish/iranian/roma/ or indian according to various people.
I hate ghettos - lets not have 'em eh? _________________ A broken stereotype is a beautiful thing
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: National pride.
I tried the death ray.... but yelling exterminate really loud and waving a stick about just annoyed the neighbours. Had better luck with my sink plunger.
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) but have big V6 gass guzzling engines. The police have checkerboard patterns on their hats but carry guns. They have a labour party... but the liberals are in power!
! I squirted it with anti-spider spray it was still moving so in the end I had to hit it with the tin!
