Nice Revamp.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

Aremis,

OK, so what would you do if it cost $20,000 per year to run AniMotions, but you were only getting back $5,000 a year in sales?

How would you make up for $15,000 in losses every year?

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

One other thing from the land of statistics:

Since we opened Premier, every single statistic at Rotica has improved. More signups per day. More activity per user once on-site. More new images posted to the main galleries. More posts in the forums. A much higher quality of work in Main. Many new artists coming from other sites to post work in Main. More artists in Premier showing work at galleries and other shows.

You may have disagreed in concept with what was done, but the results have been spectacular.

True, the same model will not work here. But we did save the site from closure and we improved the overall experience -- according to the statistics and qualitative judgement.

So, again, how would you propose to make up the $15,000 annual gap?

Aremis · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:27 am Post subject:

Ahhh...stuff your opinion...
KIDDING lol.
I do see your point, but there are enough pay sites out there as is. Animotions grew on the back of many hard working individuals, it gew from a fan site, and I would hate to see that disapear, just as the clientel at Renderotica has considerably changed, and not neccesarily for the best, from what it began as.

As for the level of talent dropping? I can guarantee it. Compare what is in our free site to what is in the pay site at some places.
Our galleries are top notch artists, loong standing veterans, proffesionals that work in the business in one aspect or another (Sharby in printing, Quagnon in television I beleive, myself in Film and Animation), and some trully serious new beginners that have great potential.

But when you throw the almighty dollar into the mix, every mom and pop organization will want a cut of it. You will have so many individuals posting lousy art, lousy stories, just to get one out there.
And yes, pay per page is a wonderful idea, for some sites, I am sure. I dont dispute that in the least. But guarantee, for every good comic someone pays for, there are those whos first few pages could be great, pull the reader in, then drop the artwork level, drop the good story, just to get the clicks.

Its just another Internet scam to get pay-per-clicks. I have been 'here' (online) since 1992. I have seen many ways to get a buck. I find this is just one more way.

Again, Not knocking your comments. Merely knocking the idea of having Animotions go in that direction. Leave the pay sites as pay sites, and let us concentrate on the fan sections, and lets help build up the store even better.

My 45$ worth =)
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Aremis · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Nice Revamp.

Now Im not sure where 20 000 dollars is going, I would have to see the books to know exactly how the money is being spent.

Does it cost that much to run a sight, by paying for server space? Nope. I have a colleague who lives rightn next door to me who runs a hosting company. So I know what it can costs (You may be paying a hell of am lot more, no doubt, but you dont have to go with just one price always).

So I cant comment on how to save 15 000 without being invovled in the books.

Now Im not saying dont go that direction. Im just saying that its not something to rush into, which I am sure none of you are.

Now if you want to save money, you can contact
www.zynetonline.com about server space. He offers amazing...and I mean, AMAZING prices, support, and he;s a fan here of Animotions. A lurker, but a fan.
I am sure that could save a few bucks for sure.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

OK, so maybe you're not aware of something. The Premier area at Rotica is by invitation only and there is no application process. Therefore, it is completely impossible for someone to just post crap for money. Plus, we remove images that are not good enough, and Premier artists who don't do well after invitation are asked to leave.

There is a very tight quality control feedback loop in Premier at Rotica. Only the best gets posted or it gets pulled.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

You are right. The hosting costs are not the bulk of the costs. It's programming, tech support and customer service that costs.

We are completely revamping the store code now and have two programmers working on that. Money is being burned at a scary rate.

And, no, we will not rush headlong into some idiot decision. Yes, we lost people at Rotica when we made the change. We knew that would happen. But the increase in overall quality of work was part of the plan, and that did work, very well.

So, yes, we are open to ideas. The pattern here has been -- come on the weekends and download all the freebies and leave. Anyone who has been here a while knows this.

We need to change how this place works or it will go away. Of that, there is no doubt. Many, many Poser sites have tanked. We simply would rather find a way to (1) prevent that (2) make this the best damn site of its kind on the planet.

Ideas?

sandmarine · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject:

Well, I'm with Sysadmin on this... changes involve a lot of risks... but, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I'm sure that many people left 'rotica, but there have been many new people joining in as well. And I agree that I'm seeing better stuff on the Main area as well. If you think about it, there's a lot of people wanting to be part of Premier as artists (I mean, getting paid for doing stuff you enjoy doing??), so there's a lot of people producing better and better stuff so they can catch the attention of the admins... and it shows.

And I insist: if you sell poop, I doubt you'll have many people wanting to buy it. And if you start giving away gold, reel in people, then start selling poop to people, unless they're moronic, they won't buy it! Taking people for stupids is not the best move to make...

If I see a comic I like for free, start following it, then the artist starts charging me to continue reading, i pay, and then his quality level decreases dramatically (I still don't see why he would do it, but whatever), of course I'll stop paying to see the comics. I'll either not pay to view the pages or simply will stop paying the monthly subscription. The artists won't get any money unless you give it to them. If they stop meeting your standards, they'll lose your favors, that's all

So I really don't see the point of "a pay area means talent dropping"... if there are other pay sites with crappy stuff, I can assure you they won't last long. There's so much crap you can pay for...

And I still don't see how a pay area affects your sharing with other people... I mean, your free gallery is still there, it didn't get disabled by the admins or anything. And you're still able to upload your artwork to the free area. So, what's different from before? How is your sharing your artwork with the community different now that there is a pay area next to the free area? You have the same privileges you had before, that hasn't changed. Looks a bit to me like selling your house because you don't like the new neighbors (though I'm sure that's not the best example).

Animotions is not hosted at geocities or tripod, so you know there are expenses involved, and someone has to pay for those expenses. And if there's no money to pay for those expenses, you know what's going to happen...

It's the same speech I gave over at 'rotica when the Premier area was announced: it's either accept there's a pay area next to your free area or it's simply "no more free area" anymore. If there's only money going out, but there's nothing coming in, the closure of any site is impending (again, unless you're a millionarie, but I know that's not the case here).
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SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

I'll give you another bit of data. When a hobbyist/fan site first starts, about 100% of the vistors contribute in some way. After a while, half are just looking at stuff and the other half contribute.

At some point in the growth of a site, 1% contribute to the forums, galleries, freebies and store products, and the other 99% are there purely for entertainment sake.

At that point, I'm not sure how that is much different than an online game. A core group producing most of the work, and everyone else enjoying themselves - based on the work of those few.

OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Nice Revamp.

Again, what I would point out is the number of fan-based images on this site. Clearly a Premiere Gallery could not include anything containing copyrighted characters like Batman or Wolverine, but that's what 99% of the content here is. From what I understand from talking to new members and prospective new members, that's also one of the main draws of the site.

I'm not entirely against having a Premiere Gallery -- assuming it would be one pay section among many free sections -- but I can't really see how it would work. Maybe I'm just missing something?
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OrcaDesignStudios · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Nice Revamp.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure the reason there was a large participation level at the beginning was that most of us migrated over from the 3dCC. That was a pretty tightly-knit group, most of whom were regular contributors to the 3dCC site and mailing list.
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SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

The same Premier idea will not work. We are playing with some ideas and open to any. Nothing is happening any time soon, especially without discussion.

SysAdmin · Site Admin Joined: Apr 12, 2004 Posts: 78

Jim,

When I speak of the mix of contributors and viewers changing, it has nothing to do with AniMotions per se.

It is a natural phenomenon of growth.

My specialty is building large "web sites" (I'm actually a network architect). That is the way a grass-roots site evolves. It either goes mainstream or it goes away. Almost all sites not built to represent major corporations start with a core of the dedicated and eventually end up handling the masses. It is natural and it is a good thing. It means you are doing well.

sandmarine · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:14 pm Post subject:

Well, just wanted to clarify that i never suggested a similar premier system as the one at 'rotica... i actually was among the first in saying that wouldn't work.

We're just talking about new ways to make a similar thing happen, my comics suggestion was just one idea. Hopefully we'll hear more new ideas soon.
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DTHUREGRIF · Site Admin Joined: Jun 05, 2001 Posts: 462

Just a note, too. The reason 3dcc came to us is because they were in a situation where they could no longer cover their bandwidth costs. If Doug wants to explain that deal, he can. Fiduciary responsibility for this site falls on me, the owner.

I have to second the notion that bandwidth and server costs are the least of the costs of running AniMotions. There's a hell of a lot of work that's been done on this site that was not done for free and won't be done for free in the future.

I realize the problems with licensed characters, but let's face it. If people only come here to download the freebies and post or look at the gallery, we recoup NONE of our costs.

So, we're posing the question. How can we make this site viable? Remember, that costs include paying tech support, me, store support personnel and my moderators if possible, my credit card processing fees, programming fees, in addition to bandwidth, servers, etc.

At this moment, the store doesn't even cover the bandwidth/server costs. Any ideas on how to pump that up 50 or 100 times? If not, what might some other options be?

Diane

Aremis · Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject:

Phew - I dont want anyone to think Im against the idea. Even with my own company, I always play devil's advocate.

I am aware the costs need to be recouped. Thats understandable. I guess its not eveyone/every site that can get the work done cheaply/freely, and its not easy to get that kind of involvment.

Change is always a good thing, and I support Ani in any and all aspects, but at the same time, I'm being realistic in the idea that changes can also drive people away. And I know all the admins are realistic on that point as well.

Like Jimbo stated, a vast majority of the artwork is copyright protected, as are the freebies. The store has some wonderful products, but the freebie products for hero related stuff far outnumbers the freebies in other categories.

Im just saying I hope the changes, for financial reasons (As important as they are), dont sink the ship. We may not be a Rosity or a Rotica...yet...but it's still the only site on the 'Net that stll draws me in on a daily basis, that I still contribute in artwork, and still share ideas and thoughts with people...even if they dont want me to.

So I will cross my fingers...My toes...My fingers on my toes...and my little short and curlies...and hope that things grow, and dont colapse in on themselves.

I support Animotions and its team.
So I'll pull from this conversation, and wait to see what happens. Hopefully with girlish glee =)
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